crank is stuck.

[ja17]

Yes, I agree with chuck, it is much easier to remove the cam sprocket. You should not have any issues as long as you are careful to keep the chain taunt.

[jan lauwers]

Thanks for your help Chuck and Joe.

I just finished putting it back in tune..., but I want to show you the result. Please tell me if this is good enough or do I need to make it more precise? The pictures show you... CA on its mark and the camshaft too.. well... within 2-3 mms. Is that good enough?

I admit that I worked my head out and did not take the camshaft sprocket off like you kindly suggested. Reason: I was worried of doing something wrong with taking the tensioner out. I am not sure how to do that. Is it with bolt that I am pointing at in the picture? If you think that my 2-3 mm is too much, I will re do it...and perhaps take the tensioner out if I know that it is no risk. 

Opening the chain was a bit tricky but OK. I held both ends taut with a pulley. 

Thanks guys!

Jan

[tel76]

Jan, the bolt that you are pointing to is not the tensioner, the tensioner is located at the front of the manifolds and is very easily removed (there is a picture in the tech: manual).
With what you have done there is the strong possibility that the fuel pump could be out of time, with the engine in the same position that you have it in the above pictures can you take a picture of the distributer (with the rotor arm in situ), it would help to see if the rotor arm is facing the slot in the distributer body.

[jan lauwers]

Thanks Eric,

I have mounted the distributor and rotor. see pic. pl. With CA at mark, the rotor is at the mark while the mark is at about 8 o' clock if middle of the car front is 12 o' clock as described elsewhere in this forum. My IP has not been out, so can I now safely assume that my IP is still in time?

second, I have tried to improve on the 2 mms difference on the camshaft marks. This time I did follow Chuck and Joe's suggestion and loosened the camshaft bolt. Thank guys you were right; loosening the tensioner is no big deal.
BUT, doing this, I still have the 2mms difference on the cam shaft marks and I can not improve on it. Is this acceptable? The 2 mms represent 10 degrees on the CA damper which seems a lot... no?

Merci!

Jan

[ctaylor738]

If the distributor was not removed during this exercise, then the IP timing is most likely OK.  But if you had to take the distributor out and move it to get to this position, then the IP timing should be checked.

If the cam is ten degrees behind the crank, then you have some chain stretch and/or sprocket wear.  This would be a good time to roll in a new chain (and replace the tensioner).

[jan lauwers]

Thanks Chuck,

My distributor HAS been out, so I guess I then have to check the timing of the IP. I have found a procedure on the forum, written by Joe Alexander.

I will try that tomorrow:

QUOTE:
I do have a method by which you can check without taking the injection pump off. You would need to unscrew some injection lines and remove one fitting and check valve in the pump to do the check.

Unhook the three rear injection lines. Remove the injection pump #4 19mm fitting (third from rear). Remove the check valve in the injection pump. You can now feel the position of the #4 plunger (piston) in the pump using a nail or such. When the engine is at 12 degrees ATDC (after top dead center of #1 cylinder)on the compression stroke (#1 cam lobes upward ), the plunger in the pump should be near the top of it's stroke. You can feel it travel upwared and downward as you turn the engine by hand. When it reaches the top of its stroke check the crankshaft timing.  During re-assembly be sure not to overtighten the 19mm fitting. 18 ft. lbs is the specified torque.

UNQUOTE

I am just not sure what the 'check valve' is that I have to remove, but I hope it will be obvious tomorrow when I try this.


thanks guys!

Jan

[tel76]

Hello Jan,
As you are aware the consensus of opinion is that your pump is out of time, why not just accept it, remove the pump and set the timing correctly.

[jan lauwers]

Boy.. I am learning so much through this experience...


I found a note by Joe Alexander where he explains how acceptable (or not) the 10 degrees after TDC on the damper are and why a deviation before TDC is a no go. Thank info was EXACTLY what I was looking for. You`re my hero Joe.
Now I am thinking of changing chain and tensioner. 
I have tonight taken the injection pump off, that was easy... found the timing procedure for the IP elsewhere on the forum...so all that is OK, but I have a few questions again:

Should I replace the seal? I read somewhere here that there are several seals, I only have this thick one. Can I keep it and add sealant on the 2 sides or is that not a good idea? Am I missing seals?
What about this sleeve with teeth inside? There is a ring in the middle that is interrupted. Why is that? Is there something to know about how to place it back?
Finally, I read that a new IP needs to be filled up with some oil. Is this also the case when we are replacing an existing pump? If yes, how exactly?


Thanks !

Jan

[tel76]

Jan,
The thick seal that you call it is an insulating block, you have no need to replace this item(if it is not damaged), but you should replace the two paper gaskets that are located either side of the insulation block.
The sleeve is the drive between the engine and the fuel injection pump, the circlip is a normal feature and is there to stop the sleeve from moving forward or backwards, if the sleeve was to move either way drive would be lost to the injection  pump.
As your car is a 280sl there is no need to fill the pump with engine oil, this is done automatically through the oil pipe that runs from the timing chest to fuel pump body, you must have removed this pipe to get the pump away from the engine, there is a picture in the tech: manual that shows the oil supply.

[ja17]

Jan,  Just set the crank at 20 degrees after top dead center (ATDC) on the compression stroke of #1 cylinder. Make sure that you are on the compression stroke of #1 cyl. The camshaft lobes of #1 cylinder must be basically upward and the distributor rotor must be pointing to the slash-mark on it's rim. If the cam shaft lobes on #1 are pointing downward, then you are 180  degrees off! When you have that right, line up the marks on the IP and slide it in. (not supper critical ), just get it as close as you can by eye. The important thing is to have the cam shaft on time (20 dgrees ATDC of the compression stroke of  #1 cylinder

[jan lauwers]

Eric,

Thank you, your explanation is very clear. I will then buy the 2 paper gaskets since they were not present in mine. Strange, I never had a leak there. Guess I have been lucky then.

Joe, Great, Thanks... you must have explained this so many times on this forum, I had already found that procedure from you a few times. 
As I have said earlier, I have a difference on the camshaft mark of 2-3 mms, which represents 10 degrees on the damper (After TDC). I think my chain has stretched. (I don't know the history of my car). I read another great post of you where you explain that one chain link represents 18 degrees etc. There you say that a deviation of up to 10 degrees is Ok. I hesitate if I replace my chain now or later, since I plan a full overhaul of my engine by a specialist when the finance allow, probably in a year of 2. IF I decide not to change the chain YET, does the 20 degrees setting on the damper to line up IP, not have to become 30 (20+10 deviation)? Or should I just set it at 20? (note: I don't do much milage... say 2000kms year).
 
I hope I am making myself clear here.

Thanks again!
Jan

Jan

[tel76]

Jan,
When I look at your picture above it looks like you do have a paper gasket stuck to the block, it is very unusual not to have a leak if these gaskets are missing.
If I were you with all the relevant parts exposed I would fit a new chain, they are not all that expensive (check out SLS or other after market suppliers), you did indicate that you would change the tensioner, why, I would strip it down give it a good clean, inspect it carefully and if there is no wear or scoring I would refit it, why waste money?
When refitting the tensioner fit a new sealing rubber  O  ring.

[ja17]

Good thinking Jan, however the IP setting is not that critical. Also the amount of chain stretch is only a fraction of the total since the distance from the cam to the IP is only a small portion of the total chain length. Just use the 20 degrees ATDC setting. The term "chain stretch" is just another way of describing a chain which lengthens due to wear mostly. Each of the pins in the 134 link timing chain wear a very slight amount. Multiplying this wear by 134 times creates a longer timing chain. Once the chain becomes long enough it can exceed the capability of the chain tensioner to take up the slack, causing noise, more wear and possible catastrophic damage. Don't panic, the timing chain should last for at least 100K in these engines. The chain tensioners are very reliable, but can become stuck from dirty oil deposits.

[jan lauwers]

Thanks for all your help gentlemen, I think i have everything I need now.

Jan