Krytox

[awolff280sl]

Not inexpensive, but a great oil and gas resistant lubricant. It is pure PFPE / PTFE.
I have used it on the gas cap gasket and the window seals. Lasts much longer and less messy than other lubricants.
It is high temperature tolerant so I will try it next time I lube the linkages.

[wwheeler]

There is both an oil and a grease version of Krytox. I would hesitate to use the grease on the linkages as it may attract dirt and get gritty thus increasing wear. The oil would be fine. Which were you using?

[awolff280sl]

Wallace,
After reading your post and doing some research, I agree that the grease I have would not be a good choice for the linkages.
The oil comes in several viscosities. The GPL 102 seems not too thick and may be a good choice for the linkages.
What do you think?

[wwheeler]

That looks good. Might check the viscosity range of the GPL 102 with something you know of that has the viscosity you want. Hard part is that there are a million different viscosity tests and neither will translate back and forth. If you are lucky, you will find two that match.

That is really slick stuff and I may get some myself. Good idea.

[Jonny B]

Intriguing indeed. Did you purchase through Amazon, or is there a brick and mortar place that sells this to the general public?

[awolff280sl]

got it from Amazon

[wwheeler]

I might change my recommendation of the grade of Krytox oil. GPL-102 is an ISO grade of 15. http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/assets/downloads/H-58510-5_Krytox_Typical_Properties.pdf

To put that into perspective, AW-32 hydraulic oil has an ISO grade of 32. So the GPL-102 is about half as thick viscosity wise. I might want to go to something thicker like GPL-105 which is 150. If I had to guess, that would be about like 30 wt. motor oil. Has anybody bought the GPL-102 to confirm?

The thicker viscosity might have more staying power.

[Shvegel]

We had a customer who was a petroleum engineer years ago.  He walked in one day and gave me a tiny tube of Krytox grease and started to rattle off all of it's properties(Extremely low temp viscosity, low friction, used by NASA etc).  I put it in my pocket and didn't think about it until I went to start my car that had been sitting outside at -40F all day. The key was really stiff and I had been meaning to grease it when I remembered the Krytox! I shot a little into the key slot and that loosened it up and it stayed that way until I sold the car.  I still have the same tube and it has lived in the glovebox of every car I have owned since. 

[66andBlue]

... To put that into perspective, AW-32 hydraulic oil has an ISO grade of 32. So the GPL-102 is about half as thick viscosity wise. I might want to go to something thicker like GPL-105 which is 150. If I had to guess, that would be about like 30 wt. motor oil. Has anybody bought the GPL-102 to confirm?
The thicker viscosity might have more staying power.

I would hesitate to use the grease on the linkages as it may attract dirt and get gritty thus increasing wear.

Wallace,
based on the product info it appears that the GPL-105 is rather fluid at 100°C (212°F), approximately the expected engine bay temperature during driving. Similar to 40W motor oil at that temperature.
Why would PFPE / PTFE grease attract dirt more than an PFPE / PTFE oil? Provided of course, that one would only uses a thin film of grease and not a blob.
{BTW, I am NOT a tribologist  }

[wwheeler]

If you used a very thin film of grease, then maybe. But I would imagine most would rather inject grease into the socket instead of taking it apart. In that case you would create a valve lapping paste over time that would tend to be abrasive.

The nice thing about an oil is that it can be flushed out along with what grit has made its home in the socket. Grease can't be flushed easily. Using oil will require more frequent maintenance though. If the socket had a seal, then by all means use the grease.

The alternative is to do nothing which to me is better than a lot of grease.

[bogeyman]

I've heard ATF is good for the socket joints. Anyone have experience?

[wwheeler]

I have used ATF and I am not sure it is as good as motor oil. It does not have much body and likes to flow everywhere. But for tight metal bushings and such, probably good. In fact there is a penetrant formula of 50/50 Acetone and ATF. Some people swear by it. I used it and didn't see much difference to PB blaster. But that is for another thread.

I received my 1 oz. bottle of Krytox GPL-105. At room temperature I would say it is more like 50wt oil. So I would not go any thicker than this or you will be in the liquid grease category. I put some on my finger tip and boy is it slick. Good luck getting it off with just a paper towel. I think it will work great as a linkage lube as well as for the door handle plungers. Thanks to Andy for bringing it up.

[66andBlue]

Hi Wallace,
in the attached PDF is an interesting graph showing the change in the coefficient of friction between PVC and painted sheet metal after 1million rubbing cycles.
Looks to me GPL-103 was the best but GPL-105 was still effective also. Not sure what the result would be for metal against metal like in a ball against socket situation.

Interestingly GM, VW and many other car companies sell Krytox under their brand names for weatherstripping and as anti-squeak and rattle but the price is about the same.
The only thing cheaper is this product: http://www.microlubrol.com/convertibletopseallube.aspx
{To compare prices one needs to keep in mind: 1 ounces / 28 gm. NET WEIGHT (approx. 15 ml. or 1/2 fluid ounce by volume - Krytox oils are about twice as heavy as water) }

[wwheeler]

When trying to find the GPL-105, I ran across many people who used it as a squeak remedy. Alfred, that is some pretty heavy duty info! I needed a cup of coffee first before diving into that. The main reason I got the 105 is because it was very available. My W111 coupe rear windows are a bit slow going up. I am going to try the GPL-105 on the rub strip and see what happens.

BTW - I also have some LVP Krytox vacuum grease that I have had for years. It is slick alright but incredibly thick.

[awolff280sl]

I just returned from a 350 mile round trip having used Krytox 102 on the linkages. I used brake cleaner first to clean the linkages and remove the old ATF I had been using.
I definitely feel and see a difference.
I had an intermittent problem with throttle returning to fully closed due, in part, to a delicate balance I wanted to achieve between opposing forces.  2 springs pull the throttle closed while the last few millimeters are resisted by the throttle damper and to a lesser extent by the throttle kick-up solenoid. (I had already adjusted the damper's reach for best effect, and adjusted the solenoid's plunger to best counteract the AC compressor).
The Krytox seems to have fixed this.
While I used it on all the moving joints, I think it made the most difference at the IP spring and at the throttle plate pin.
Pedal resistance feels less, but that might be in my head (rather than my foot).

[wwheeler]

I just lubed the linkage points with the GPL-105 where I had used motor oil prior. When I used to lube the joints, initially it felt very good but would soon get a bit sticky. With the GPL-105, it feels a bit firmer but VERY smooth from start to wide open. It will be interesting to see how this might change over time.   

[280SE Guy]

When trying to find the GPL-105, I ran across many people who used it as a squeak remedy. Alfred, that is some pretty heavy duty info! I needed a cup of coffee first before diving into that. The main reason I got the 105 is because it was very available. My W111 coupe rear windows are a bit slow going up. I am going to try the GPL-105 on the rub strip and see what happens.

Wallace,

Before you "grease up" your window tracks you might want to look into this product. I used it on Anthracite a couple of years ago and it works great. Of course I removed the door cards and lubed the tracks all the way from the bottom up. You might want to grab another cup of coffee and read up on it.

http://www.mclubemarine.com/sailkote/

[wwheeler]

I've used McLube products for mold releases and they are good. Thanks for the info and I will look into it.