The oldest 230 SL I have ever seen

[watson2]

Hi guys . I've gone to Milan Autoclassica on saturday.  I could not miss to go.
So I found a lot of interesting things : a RM Sotheby's auction with 400 cars sold without reserve,
a lot of projects , but above all the oldest 230 I've ever seen.

The car is in very poor conditions and it will request a deep restoration of every detail,
but IT IS THE NUMBER  15  !!!

It is probably the oldest 230 SL existing in the world.
It has a complex history with a travel to the States and back to Europe again.
Here is a couple of pictures

 

[Jonny B]

Most interesting. An early car would not have the side lights/reflectors, but any old car will have been part of the dreaded, "previous owner" syndrome.
Keep us posted on what you  learn.

[Benz Dr.]

I have number 000064 here. Kind of an interesting car in the fact that it has power steering and is copper in color. All early cars were standard but power steering was optional and I'd have to believe that copper was special order paint. This also leads me to believe that this car was very likely ordered long before anyone had even seen a new one and that it may hold an interesting story. 

[mdsalemi]

Those of you with long memories may recollect that back in 2012, I went to see what was reportedly a 230SL prototype which had been purchased by a gentleman name Eugene Smith of Palo Alto, California. It was delivered in January of 1964. Somehow in ended up in Michigan, as the car passed from Mr. Smith to a man named Tom, and Tom's friend Brandon Carlson called me and posted some information about it around that time.

I did go and see the car, though I did not meet the owner. A year later I inquired and it was being used regularly. I even remember (due to saving old emails) that at that time there was talk of 230SL #15.

I can't find any photos and I suspect that was because it was a dark and dreary day, raining, and the garage had little in the way of light. But, Brandon did show the note (I have a copy) that the original owner wrote to Rudolf Uhlenhaut in July of 1964 after having used the car for six months. The note was engineering and user commentary on all aspects of the car.

As far as I know the car is still here in Michigan. Brandon was a member here at one time.

[waltklatt]

Another note, the earliest 230SL's had hand stamped numbers on the plate.
The plate you show in the picture has machine stamped numbers.
I know as I had #199 230SL and it had hand stamped numbers.
Then my #1246 had machine stamped numbers.
Hand stamped numbers are individually stamped and not perfectly lined up.

Clear up the mystery and look at the frame number stamping to verify the number #15.

[114015]

Hello Flavio (watson) !

It is probably the oldest 230 SL existing in the world.

Surely not.
There is at least half a dozen of older VINs around.
I personally know of Vin 000001, 000004, 5 (supposingly), 9, 11 (not absoutely sure) and 14 (Boehringer Pagoda), which are older than 015. I have seen most of these cars in person, but not all.

We had also thoroughly discussed no.  0015 a couple of years back and I wonder that the famous Gentlemen here         do not remeber this. But the absoutely unfamous early-car-aficionado Achim does.
Bob (Cascadia) here on the forum bought the car in 2011 and sold it (on ebay) to someone in Italy. And that is where the car is today, Italy.

Please have a look here about its interesting "re"discovery by Bob:

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15172.0

Still haven't seen no. 15 in person but have got plenty of pics of this car.
Have to visit Sefano in Milano .... if he still owns the car.....

Enjoy !

Achim
(1971 230/8)

[114015]

I have number 000064 here. Kind of an interesting car in the fact that it has power steering and is copper in color. All early cars were standard but power steering was optional and I'd have to believe that copper was special order paint.

Hello Dan,
Really ....?
That makes me wonder...!

I did see no. 000064 twice last year being on offer by MB dealer Leseberg in Germany.
Once on the Bremen Classic Motorshow in Feb (2016) and then again on the TechnoClassica in Essen in April 2016.
And the car is/was for sure white 050, not copper 463. Also, the car clearly had no power steering!
Are you sure, Dan, yours is 000064? Not 000065 or so perhaps? 

Enclosed a pic of 000064.

You guys (here) will certainly think this car is ugly - unworth of any restoration.
But actually the car is not ! It's highly interesting, strongly weathered for sure but also highly original and absolutely untouched.
A real treasure trove for the early-SL-aficionado (like me). Hopefully this car will only receive a very sympathetic restoration. Hopefully they don't destroy all the tiny little originality bits which these "we make it all brand new" ultra top restorations (like Hjeltness, A. Dearborn & others) usually perform in order to fetch top $$ on the usual suspective Auctions ....

Enclosed a pic of 0064 - enjoy !


Achim
(1971 MB 230, 1994 MB 230)

[Benz Dr.]

Well, I thought it was no. 64 but then I haven't seen it in a year or more because it's at the body shop. Belongs to a guy who used to post on this site who went by '' Ice cube. ''

 Next time I see it I'll have to look at the VIN again. My description of the car is correct though.

[watson2]

Thank you Achim ! Wow ! How many things to learn !
It took some time to read all these information on the previous discussion, but I did it with interest.

The guys that had the car in Milano Autoclassica told to me that the engine is the one of a 220SE or something
like that. But after I saw the picture I attach, I have some doubt . The manifold was the same we see in the picture. So...
If I have the opportunity I'll search the engine nr.

@Waltklatt: your observation is very interesting, but I'm not surprised by differencies in the way to write
the Vin number on the plate (machine stamped or hand stamped).
They made small changes almost every day during the first period in 1963 as you can see in Pagoda notes.
May be this was one of the changes. After I saw the documentation on the link indicated by Achim I have no
reason to think that someone altered that plate.
It seems to me I read that in the first car it was possible to find only the VIN number on the frame and no plate at all.
Anyway I thank you for teaching me why my number on the plate is invisible and can only be read with a magnifying lens.
Now i undestand. My number on the plate is hand stamped.

[watson2]

It's me again, guys. I explain a little better what I mean about the plate of my car.
The first pic shows the Vin nr. on the frame.
When I looked at the plate near to the water nourice I was sad because I could read nothing.
It looked like someone had rubbed the plate with a solvent, looking for something, probably the same thing I was looking for.
But...
When I zoomed in with the computer,  numbers magically appeared.
It seems they had used a small hammer or that those who beat the numbers did not want to make noise.

I haven't any explanation about the fact that the plate seems strafed 


P.S. @Achim - Stefano has sold the car to the current owner

[Benz Dr.]

I see car number 2,208 in automatic in your pic.

 I can't remember the exact number ( maybe the first 700 cars ) but early cars were all standard trans. I also have car umber  1,036 ( I think ) which is an auto, built on Dec 13, 1963. Less than 95 cars were produced in 1963 which came in auto trim. The engine number of this car is actually lower ( around 65 ) than the older car I have which is engine number 151.

Clearly, they built a number of engines before they started production - a few in auto and most in standard transmission. These engines, while very similar, are different at the locating dowel pin at the back of the crank shaft with the length of the pin being the main difference. Standard cranks also had a pilot bearing installed to support the input shaft of the trans.

[pj]

Hi folks,
sorry I didn't catch this thread when it first started. Dan, your early car that is at the body shop is 000164. I have many photos of it, and will post one here showing the VIN on the frame rail, only with your permission.

Here's a photo re-sized to show the stamped VIN clearly. I have others of the whole car, but I think they exceed the size limit here on the Forum

[Benz Dr.]

Oh, well there ya go. It's 164 rather than 64. Silly me.

[Shvegel]

I think a couple of inconsistencies can be chalked up to it's trip to America where it should have(by law) been fitted with side marker lights when imported.  The power steering is also quite possibly added after production as it is a fairly simple bolt in affair.