Author Topic: What's involved in racing & rallying ?  (Read 7446 times)

Cees Klumper

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What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« on: October 05, 2004, 16:21:57 »
Today a plan was born to purpose-build at least one rally/racing Pagoda. The idea is to build a car that can enter into fun events where speed and endurance, along with driver skill, are keys to success. "Fun events" would be those events where we would like to see our 'object of desire' appear.

Here are my questions:

- in what sorts of events does the car have to be mostly 'stock' (save maybe extra driving lights, a rollbar and that sort of thing - but no modifications to the engine, suspension, weight etc)

- in what sorts of events can you basically do anything you like to the car, as long as it still pretty much looks like a Pagoda from the outside (i.e. the other extreme)?

- are there events 'in between'?

- is there some sort of publication where all of this is spelled out already? For different countries? Because I imagine rules and types of events will vary widely between countries and continents.

Any experts out there (Pete Lesler, Joe Alexander, Peter van Es for example I know have participated in various kinds of events) please share your experiences and suggestions with us!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Malc

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2004, 03:08:43 »
To try and answer Cees questions I have noted below the kind of requirements for the UK. However if we as a group were to build an "international" car the best source of information is the FIA. I know that rules and regs governing vehicles are now pretty much common across Europe, For instance whats allowed in a "class" in say Germany or Holland is the same in the UK, though the class may not be called the same thing!

Here in the UK:
There are basically three kinds of events:

1) Stage Rallying
2) Track events
3) Road events

Stage rallying
THis is divided into classes and event types. THere are classes for WRC cars, Group A Group N and then cars out of homologation. Most International rallys require cars to be WRC, Group A or N. Hence I cannot do the International rally GB in the Lancia Delta Integrale because it is out of Homologation. However I can use it in other events and championships, for instance the Scottish as I run in Class 8 which is for any vehicle over an effective engine size of 2000cc.
All vehicles have to be "street legal" as sections of public road are included in these events
There are classes for "historic" vehicles, basically pre 1973, this according to rumour was designed to exclude the Ford Escort Mk2
Entrants in this class use the same stages as other cars but are in their own championship, up against such cars as MGB's, Healeys, TR4 etc
Cars in this class must be built and or modified to the standards of the day, with the exception of some safety items. The rules governing these are published in the "Blue book" issued by the Motor Sports Association every year, and the relevant championship rules.

Track events
There are several Championships for older cars, each with it's own rules and regulations, but such events as the Goodwood Revival are included. Most of these events are at places such as Brand Hatch, Silverstone, Snetterton, Croft etc. A vehicle doesn't strictly need to be street legal on a closed circuit, but check the championship rules!

Road Events
THese are usually organised more at a club level and include navigational rallies, time trials, Endurance events. Most of these require very little modification to a vehicle, if any, and are run on the public roads, so a car has to be "street" legal.
Some of these are small and local others are more international. An Example is the "Whisky Trail" a mixture of time and navigational trials in Scotland that attracts entrants form all over the world.

Personal requirements
To enter many events you need an FIA recognised competition License, The type of license you need depends on the event type and the level at which it is run. This is usually stipulated in the event entry form and regs. The MSA "Blue book" lists the level of license required.
For example I hold a National A license which allows me to do any stage rally up to and including International, but only in the UK. If I want to go track racing I would need to apply for a track license "endorsment" start at the bottom and work up (determined by the number of events you do rather than where you end up). THe first few events I do on the track means I have to place a yellow square with a black cross on the car to warn others I am a "learner"!!

You need an approved flame proof racing suit and approved crash helmet for stages and track. Racing shoes, gloves etc are an option  

All in all it can be a bit of a nightmare, but research could lead to a Pagoda suitable for a wide variety of events rather than being restricted to a few due to very heavy modification

Would love to hear the experiences of folk in other parts of the world who participate in motor sports events
Malc

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2004, 16:36:42 »
If this car is built , I got the custom fuel cell for the trunk.

Bob Geco

JamesL

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2004, 02:29:24 »
I'll ask around

My car is in for some TLC next week and the bloke that does it (Roger Edwards) does quite a lot of prep for cars that compete. last time I was there he was finishing up a car for the London-Sydney

I can but ask

I'll also ask on the MB UK OC forum and see what pops up
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

ja17

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2004, 21:48:43 »
Hello Cees,
Driving events add a whole new level of enjoyment to ownership of a car. You will learn more about the limits of your car and your own driving ability.
You can choose your own level of envolvement depending on the time and money you want to invest.
Find a good club or organization to join first of all. In the US The Mercedes Benz Club of America for social and driving events. The SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) is more driving event oriented but usually for newer cars. There are also plenty of Vintage Racing and Rallying organizations to get involved in.

You will meet a lot of people participating in all levels.

Solo racing (Autocross, or Gymkanna ) allows individuals to compete at speed while on track one  a time. There is no danger of collisions with other contestants. These events can be held on track or large paved parking areas.  Solo I or time trials involves solo racing on a racetrack (timed runs). High speeds are achieved and all basic racing physics are at work but you won't have to worry about bumping fenders with any other competitor. These events are usually preceeded by driving instruction, practice with instruction and some type of certification.
Many Clubs use some of the finest race coarses in the country for these kind of events.
A higher level of involvememt or hub to hub racing will involve some schooling, certification and a lot more expense in car preparation and safety equipment.

Rallying is another type of competition. There are all levels here also. This competition will usually involve an driver and navigator. There are casual rally events (fun rallys and gimmick rallys). There are TSD (time/speed/distance) in which navigation and average speed plays the biggest role. "Stage" or performance rallys are driving competitions with a driver and navigator on closed public roads. These are true races in which competitors try to achieve  the fastest times over an often unknown coarse. Stage rallys can be a very long marathon event or short sprints. Often times dozens of stages "race sections" are linked together in a single event.
Several years ago a vintage rally around the world was held. The contestants using vintage cars of all makes and ages started in England, traveled through Europe, the Baltics, former Soviet Union, China, Alaska, Canadian rockies, northern US, Africa (Sahara ) back up through Spain and France to finish in England. This was basically a TSD rally with a few "stages" performance sections. Pablo Picaso's son drove a Mercedes 230-SL in this event.

In recent years there has been a movement to get vintage cars out of museums and into vintage race and rally events so more people can enjoy seeing them and using them in their own element.

Many historic and vintage race and rally events have different levels for owners to participate at their own levels. These may range from touring classes without speed or expensive safety and performance preparations to full competition classes.

Next month "The Classic Adelaide Rally" is being held in Adelaide Austrailia. The Mercedes and Porche Museums will be sending special vintage cars to the event. Owner's and enthusiasts worldwide will assemble to tour or compete on all levels. 600 miles of paved roads will be closed for the event over four days. The Mercedes "SL" is a featured marque. Sterling Moss, Bobby Rahal are some past entrants to the event.
Tom Hamilton (190-SL groupe pres.), Dieter Ritter(Mercedes Classic Car Club), John Olson (past M100 group pres) and many others will be attending with their Mercedes cars.
I have entered my prepared 450-SLC in the competition class :)
Download Attachment: Rally car.JPG
62.02 KB

Vintage events like this are several times a year and are becoming vey popular.


Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 22:04:41 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Cees Klumper

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2004, 23:13:26 »
Thanks Joe - that's a great run-down of what sorts of events are out there. It will be difficult to choose !

Best of luck in the Classic Adelaide next month (November 17-21). There is a website for this event here: http://www.classicadelaide.com.au/ca/
You will find Joe's entry under the 'competition' tab and then the 'entries' tab.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

hauser

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2004, 15:05:31 »
Cees your rally car awaits you! Well maybe!  Ebay auction  item # 4500751082  This car is also on Roy Spencers' site.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

norton

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2004, 19:57:11 »
Is that Peter Lester's old car?

Peter van Es

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2004, 05:37:56 »
Hi all,

In Europe (not speaking for the UK for now) there are many events that are geared towards rallying classic cars.

Most of these events limit entry to cars built before a particular year (e.g. Mille Miglia is only eligible for cars that ran in the original clssic Mille Miglia, i.e. from 1927 to 1957). The modifications allowed to the car must be period... i.e. fog lights or long range driving lamps must have been available in that period too.

In order to certify that the car is original, it needs a FIVA (Fédération Internationale Véhicules Anciens) Identity Card. For my entry in the Wintertrial, I needed to get my car verified and scrutineered. The things that your car should comply with, and application forms can be found on here. Normally local, national autoclubs handle the inspection and application process in a particular country.

Some people go quite a long way in preparing their rally car. They add roll-bars, special enlarged and foam filled fuel tanks, automatic fire extinguishers, electrical cut-outs, four point belts, matt-black paint on the bonnet/hood, and so on. For really strenuous rally events that is quite useful, also if you intend to seriously participate in multiple events per year. However, most of these changes are pretty final: it becomes hard to return the car to its original form.

At any rate, even if you do not intend to rally that frequently, you need to add things to be able to perform in a rally:
  • fire extinguisher
  • driving or fog lamps
  • navigation lights in the car
  • halda or other mechanical precision odometer
Generally however I found that any modifications you make to the car should improve its reliability rather than its performance. Lasting the 5 day, strenuous driving event is more important than finishing the first and second day 1st and dropping out on the 3rd day. Things to consider, depending on when the event is run are winter tires, stiffened suspension, reliable electricals, those sort of things.

The events in Europe for classic cars typically are a combination of navigation (where the navigator is taxed with sometimes fiendishly difficult puzzles, a logical mind really helps), time-speed-distance regularity sections (where the driver and the navigator have to work together with precision odometer, and stopwatches to drive a section at an exact series of speeds), special stages (where, e.g. on a cleared parking lot a parcours has to be followed in the shortest possible time). The roads are not closed off, there is other traffic, but they are typically quiet, narrow and mountainous. Achieving the average speed requires drivers to push on quite a lot where possible.

Events typically have two or three classes.  Trial class is for those that have some serious experience in rallying. They typically involve night sections, and sometimes higher average speeds (e.g. 35 km/h on a regularity, and 50km/h overall). Club class is better suited when you join in for the first time, and the first years thereafter. Usually no night sections (so you can retire to the bar earlier) and sometimes lower average speeds (45 km/h) although that was not the case on the winter trial.

With regard to the kind of navigation you do, that depends on the event. The long distance rallies use road books with a variety of instructions (e.g. tulips diagrams or intersection instructions, have a look at an article on my own web-siteon this. If there is interest, I can post some articles on regularities, and on other navigational puzzles that get given.

There is a whole range of rallies to choose from in Europe. Well known organisers/rallies are:
 
Peter

Check out http://bali.esweb.nl for photographs of classic car events and my 1970 280 SL
« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 05:40:38 by vanesp »
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

W113SL

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2004, 13:03:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by norton

Is that Peter Lester's old car?


W113SL

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2004, 13:07:21 »
quote:
Originally posted by norton

Is that Peter Lester's old car?



My old Vintage race car is now on ebay item number 4500751082.  I sold it early this year to a guy up in Chicgo.  I understand he now wishes to sell it. If anyone wants to vintage race a 230SL this car is fully set up.

Pete Lesler

ja17

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2004, 23:55:12 »
Hello Guys,
Here is a nice photo of a W113 SL at the Adelaide Rally in Australia. An entrant in the non-racing class of the event. Next to a Ford GT40 no less which was in the competition!


Download Attachment: scrutineering (W113, GT40, Porsche).JPG
61.55 KB

Here is a shot of some the international cars at the event, absolutely amazing!

Download Attachment: compound (amazing display!).JPG
62.72 KB

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio




« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 22:21:57 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

rwmastel

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2004, 07:58:13 »
Joe,
Hello and welcome back!  Sorry, but I can't see the pics.  Must have too long of file names or illegal characters (!) in file name.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
2017 C43 AMG
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France

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2004, 08:36:36 »
Cees,

Our first event was a regularity with the GT40 up the Zugspitze.  It was lots of fun, had lots of wiggle room (rules allowed you to slow down or speed up at the finish) minimal danger, and a great way to start out.  We tried to get into the Jochpass race this year, but these oldtimer events are very very popular, at least in Europe--early sign up is mandatory, as they fill up fast and sometimes they are looking for a particular mix of years and types of cars.

If you want to read about our experience, search for my essay which I posted earlier in the year on the forum...



Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Austrian Alps
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...

ja17

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Re: What's involved in racing & rallying ?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2004, 00:26:17 »
Sorry guys,
I am still trying to get these photos to open! Coming soon (I hope)


Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback