Author Topic: High performance engines???  (Read 19818 times)

n/a

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High performance engines???
« on: November 11, 2003, 21:53:03 »
Hi Gang,
You know, I've only been on this board for a short while (thanks Bob!) and I've only owned my car for about 1 1/2 years but I dont see any posts regarding high performance engine modifications. What's available? I know for my '68 Camaro there are TONS of accessories, motors, etc that we can utilize to gain any kind of performance imaginable. And years ago, when I had my '76 BMW 2002, there were things we did to maximize performance  :twisted: (big, illegal Weber carbs, distributors, headers, ignition, strip off the thermal reactor/smog stuff etc.) But for the Mercedes, it seems most people concentrate on just keeping them running, or full-on restorations to showroom condition, which is fine...but...I'd like a bit more ooomph! It seems to me that this motor should be capable of so much more! My mechanic excels at tuning and getting the best out of the stock motor I have...but...Wasn't AMG or any of the others around back in the day of the W113? There must be a way to "pump this puppy up" short of dropping a small block V8 under the hood! Don't get me wrong, I love my car, and I'm not going drag racing or anything of the like. But when a PT Cruiser (albeit a GT Turbo) can blow my doors off, I feel a little...whats the word...inadequate!  :?  
Anyone?

Steve W.
1968 280SL
www.stevewaddington.com/camaro

Cees Klumper

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2003, 01:06:32 »
Hello Steve - there has been some discussion about this before. One obvious thing to do is switch over to a euro camshaft, if you have a US spec car. It adds about 10-15 HP by most accounts and is not (readily?) available in the US, but can be found readily in Europe, for less than $500. You may also need new cam bearings, depending on your current style. Check the vendor database: SLS, Niemoller and Van Dijk come to mind and there are others. The other simple modifications that people have been positive about in terms of adding performance, are a K&N airfilter and electronic ignition.

Here's several comprehensive lists of modifications from my own archives:

"I have tried to incorporate every performance enhancement that I am aware of:
Valve Clearances
New Cam
New Timing Chain
Rebuilt Distributor with Pertronix unit
No resistance in wires
Ceramic Coating inside exhaust manifold and exhaust system.
New Injectors
Rebuilt Fuel Injection pump
New Fuel delivery system
It runs great, but I always want more. Any other thoughts?

Yeah, early header pipes. Matching all the ports in the head. Hotter coil. Synthetic oil ETC.

Here is the tried-and-true list of performance options used by the hotrod community.  They are all meant to increase the horsepower-to-weight ratio or reduce horsepower eating drag.
Reduce Driveline Friction:
Synthetics in engine, transmission, rear-end & wheel bearing.
Adjust bearings on the loose side.
Better Air Flow through the air pump (engine):
K&N Filter (direct attachment cone is the best)
Add an air scoop for some positive pressure at speed and utilizing cool (denser)outside air and not warm engine compartment air.
Modify the exhaust after the two header pipes come together to three incches with a non baffled muffler, i.e straight through.
Modify head with larger valves
New cam grind for the most desired RPM/speed
Better timing:
Electronic ignition for more precise timing
Advance ignition to 1 degree less than ping
Reduce rolling resitance:
Higher air pressure in tires
Purchase tires with the lowest rolling resistance
Less air drag:
Good wax job
No radio antenna
No right hand side mirror
Drive only with the hardtop on
Keep the windows rolled up
Lower the car
Lessen the weight:
Empty every non essential out of the car (carpet, radio, passenger seat, AC, trailer hitch, etc.)
Go on a diet
Part of this is extreme. The idea is to get one into the mind set of less weight, less resistance, and putting air through the 2.3 engine. In my racing days these principles plus true intake and exhaust headers allow me to get a 1966 1300 cc VW to run 100 mph plus a little.

You probably could turbo charge your car and reap great benefits. If you keep the turbo small enough and the boost low enough you should be able to have the best of all worlds. Having though of this myself(Having not even driven my own car yet but having read the 0 to 60 time of 11 seconds) a couple of the major hurdles would be manifolding the exaust gasses to the turbo and enrichening the fuel mixture to accout for greater air density. You might be able to solve the latter easily enough just by connecting a tube from the intake to the atmosphere port of the injection pump (it would have to have a check valve to the atmosphere so the port would see only boost and not vacuum) but you would probably be much better off adding a later fuel injection system which would be far more adaptable.

I did a lot of study on this subject while building my vintage race 230SL. First I was lucky to find a 2.8 engine out of a 300SEL 2.8 with the Euro "09" cam in it. I had the head ports matched and polished. New valve job with good quality three angle valve seats ground. I also had the intake and exhaust manifolds extrude honed to clean them up. I had the engine cleaned up by installing new pistons and had everything balanced to 1/2 gram tolerances. This helped in acceleration out of the turns. I had the injection pump rebuilt and recalibrated for racing by Hans at H&R. I used him because he has had experience building racing mechanical fuel injection pumps for Porsches. Then I installed new injectors. Has recommended the early style injectors found on 230SL and early 250SE and SL's. He thinks they flow better. Lastly I did install an abbreviated intake system using a large K&N filter. I actually removed the entire canister and attached the K&N to the intake manifold. The exhaust system was modified by using one large 3 inch pipe into a very small straight through muffler. I have since replaced this with a Borla stainless steel which seems to flow very well. I used the Crane emitter and detector style point replacement system and it has worked flawlessly. With the Euro cam and a 3.92 rear end ratio, I can rev to 7,000 RPM in first and second gears. After all of this, I think the engine barely makes an honest 200HP. I believe they were a bit overrated when new like all engines of the period. I had an engine builder evaluate this engine on a computer program and he believed it would require a much hotter cam, larger intake valves and thinner exhaust valve stems, a compression ratio of 11.5 to one to get 250HP. He though the intake manifold throttle size could be made larger and possibly get up to almost 100HP per liter. I figured this would cost an additional $4-5K.  This would cost too much money and destroy the reliability of the engine which is very good at this time, so I opted for reliability and placed most emphasis on handling, braking and driving schools."

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Joe

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2003, 09:36:30 »
Can someone give me a good idea of what is involved in fitting the K&N filter? I don't want to cut up any of the car's original parts.
Thanks,
Joe
1965 Euro

Cees Klumper

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2003, 10:42:49 »
You have to get the correct K&N filter. The one I got was just slightly too tall so I had to add some plastic tape around the top of the canister and the lid, in order to close the remaining 1/4 "" gap. Also I had to cut the bottom of the filter and part of the top rubber neck. I.e. a lot of fiddling to get it right. I probably did not get the correct K&N stock #. Does anyone have the right stock number?

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Joe

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2003, 11:41:28 »
Cees, did you notice a performance increase? Improved mileage (kilometerage)? Does the filter fit inside the existing canister? I've not seen one of these filters nor a picture of one, and assume they are some sort of foam sleeve that attaches to the throttle body.
Thanks,
Joe

Naj ✝︎

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2003, 14:43:25 »
Joe,
I was advised a K&N part # E2380.
This one fits straight onto the throttle body and better performance was claimed.
I have bought one but not fitted it because there isn't a place to fit the idling air hose and I'm not keen for the engine to breathe unfiltered air while idling. I have found an adaptor I could fit in front of the filter to attach the idling air hose to, but haven't got round to doing the job yet.
naj

'Kloines Scheisserle'
65 230SL
68 280SL
68 280SL

Cees Klumper

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2003, 15:43:24 »
The filter I got goes inside the canister. I suppose maybe it could have also gone straight onto the throttle body as Naj describes, but I did not even think about this option. I did not notice a change in performance / mileage myself, but others have reported good results.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

70chevelle

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2003, 16:10:22 »
Steve W - I have a 70 280SL, and as much as I like it, I often find myself considering dropping a Chevy small block in it.  I just finished an 8 year project on a 70 Chevelle, and know that I could build a 300+ hp engine for the cost of the parts to rebuild the 280.  It comes down to mocking up the motor and tranny mounts, fitting the headers, driveshaft, etc that keeps me from going too far.  Maybe in the future, or if anyone on the board has information????  The best of both worlds would be to do it in a manner that the original engine could be replaced.

70 Chevelle 13.7 @ 99.7
70 280 SL Silver/Black top
99 C230 Kompressor
03 Dodge Durango SLT

Shvegel

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2003, 20:26:23 »
Having played with other cars in the past the biggest bang would come with the addition of a small turbo. besides ducting the major hurdle would be changing the fuel injection over to one that was boost compatible like the Bosch CIS system found on early eighties Mercedes, Saabs and Volvo's I had thought long and hard about doing this but decided I really liked the elegance of the engine the way it was.
 If you really get serious I could give you more specific information.

n/a

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2003, 08:02:18 »
It seems as if you can make improvements economically up to a point with these engines and then the cost for additional horsepower starts to go up exponentially. I think the most logical things to do are"
1) raise the compression- JE will make pistons up for just about any engine, also Euro pistons might make a difference. With aluminum head you could go to 10:1 on pump gas without problems.
2) port match the induction system and mill the head, CC the chambers
3) low-restriction exhaust. Headers are essentially not available for these engines, you would have to make your own. (huge cost). But, a bigger diameter SS system might help some.
4) HOT ignition- Crane or MSD with a hotter coil, bigger wires

   I have had some experience gettng more power out of marine diesels, which are also mechanically injected. In that instance, we try to increase the amount of fuel going in (bigger injectors) after first making sure that there is enough air to burn all the fuel. (higher boost pressure, bigger turbo) With the 113 engines, there must be an adjustment range to increase the fuel pumped in by the injectors, or larger nozzles, or higher injection pressures. I would check with one of the outfits that rebuilds Bosch MFI units.
   Finally, if I just wanted the car to go faster, I would put in a V, but not a Chevy. I would keep it all Mercedes, and use either the 3.5 V8, or better yet the 5.0 aluminum block V8 from the 500E series cars. This motor doesn't weigh any more than the M180 engine, it makes ferocious power, and it comes with a terrific four-speed automatic. The 5.0 motor from the 450SL 5.0 would also fit. The 6.3 engine will NOT fit without butchering the car and will make the car nose heavy and undstable (German for unstable, or a typo).
   Another option- fit a 5 speed gearbox, and keep the low geared rear axle. This would get you a higher cruise speed..
   I'm all in favor of engine swaps but would like to see it stay in the Mercedes family. Although, I have to admit, when I look at the Ford 302 that we're building for the GT40, and I see the engine room of the 280SL, it does give me ideas...

n/a

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2003, 10:36:09 »
True, the almost 40 year old technology doesn't quite stand up to today's rice rockets.

You need to have confidence in your "adequacy", thy guy driving the P/T Cruiser is still driving a P/T Cruiser! You are driving a world class luxury sports car that will still be an icon 40 years from now when the P/T cruiser goes the way of the Pacer. The SL looks better being towed than the P/T does going 100 mph.

Shawn Rock
Philly, PA USA
1968 280 SL 4 speed

n/a

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2003, 11:15:45 »
Thanks for all the replies guys. I wasn't really looking to replace the engine, just get more power from this one. I guess the reality is making sure this motor is in top shape, but I will look into the valves/ignition/cam and pistons balanced with air and injector volumes to find a bit more "go power".
And, oh yeah, the P.T. Cruiser I was referring to belongs to my wife!  :)

Steve W.
1968 280SL
www.stevewaddington.com/camaro

JamesL

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2003, 11:18:12 »
Well if the PT Cruiser is making you feel bad, tell your wife not to drive so fast!!!!

Who runs your household? I wear the trousers in mine and I do exactly as I'm told!! :D
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

ja17

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2003, 18:54:43 »
Hello Guys,

Some of my own experiences and thoughts:
If you are wondering how much a performance air filter will help, take a quick ride around the block with the regular air filter removed.
I still think a good running M130 engine is very impressive. There is a big difference between the good running W113 cars and the average ones.
Re-working engines with non factory performance improvements may add some speed and power but usually at the sake of durability, handling or ride, economy (fuel, special parts and tuning), and resale value.
Don't get me wrong I love fast cars  and have modified more than my share of Mercedes over the years, just be prepared to sacrifice in other areas. Some of you may know Robbie Ackerman with the 190-SL Group. He has been driving and using his 190-SL "pea soup" everyday and in club competition events for many many  years. The car is not fast but has been competitive in class, durable and dependable for many years. He recently added a Judson Supercharger to his car in a quest for more power. Unfortunately he is not able to use the car at all at this time. Shortly after installing the unit during a high speed test drive the engine blew. He has decided to put the engine back stock and will use his new AMG Mercedes to quench his need for speed.
I once took a good running W113 engine removed about eight hundred pounds of weight from the car, installed a 4.08 rear end and the stock engine pushed the car 0-60 in six seconds flat. The car handled better and was more durable with less weight.
In short as long as you do not get to radical and don't expect too much you may gain some power and still retain the character, durability and value of your car. If performance is your sole objective you can go as far as you can afford!

Joe Alexander (retired SCCA Pro Rally driver, Mercedes sedan)

1955 190-SL (slow)
W113 car (again someday soon)(fast enough)
1969 300-SEL 6.3 (fast)
1975 450-SLC euro (faster)       (modified, fitted with 4spd trans)
2002 SLK-32 AMG (fastest)     (0 to 60mph 4.7 seconds)



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

n/a

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2003, 19:34:41 »
Thanks again for all your replies. I did 2 things today...
1. Replaced the air cleaner, cleaned the plugs and ran some injector cleaner thru the tank. Then I ran the car at higher RPMs than usual, and just "spanked it" on Mullholland Dr. Wow...Big difference!!!
2. Challenged my wife to a race! (She declined...)

I will be taking the car to the shop this week for a complete tune up. It smells like its running just a bit rich, and it misses at high RPMs a little. However, the faster I drove it and wound it out, the better it ran. I think that gentle, around town driving clogs it up and it just needed a good "blowing-out". Amazing little motor...I think I'll keep it!  8)

Steve W.
1968 280SL
www.stevewaddington.com/camaro

ja17

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2003, 17:10:40 »
Hello Steve,
These cars like to be exersized. Too much pampering can carbon things up. It seems like the ones that run the best and have the least amount of problems are the ones that have been in continual or limited use over the years.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Malc

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2003, 17:18:44 »
How about a supercharger?
In many ways less grief than turbo charging and "reversible" if required.
Malc

n/a

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2003, 18:45:44 »
Cees, if I ever have to rebuild the engine in my 113 I would want to get the Euro cam or anyway a better performing cam. Do you know if this is still available? I would rather get a new cam ground to those specs than a thirty-year-old performance part.

Cees Klumper

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2003, 01:16:07 »
Sorry for the belated reply on this one - the euro cams are available in Europe without a problem (Niemoller, SLS, Van Dijk etc etc). Around $600. You may or may not need a different set of cam bearings, depending on the size bearings you have now.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

n/a

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2003, 21:49:49 »
I think if I were going to try to upgrade the performance- which I guess equates to raising the horsepower and torque output- of the engine in my 113 car, I would, after what I've read here and other places, do the following:
  -do a standard engine rebuild (recondition the block, crank, etc, and bore the block to a standard oversize)
  -get a set of higher compression pistons from JE or Mahle
  -redo the head, make sure it was flat, see if slightly bigger valves were available
  -fit the Euro cam or similar modern equivalent
  -fit a K&N or similar low-restriction inlet filter
  -portmatch the head and manifolds, and try to reduce exhaust back pressure
  -fit a hotter ignition system and tweak the FI as possible

  Realistically, this would restore the engine to 1969 Euro specs or a little better. The Euro engines were rated at 190 hp, I think; some modern help in the way of ignition and airflow improvements might get the engine up to 210 or 215hp, which is pretty good from 168 cu in.
  The one thing I think I would NOT do is plane the head. Recently I became aware of the struggles some friends had with a totally restored 280SE motor which had been rebuilt- it turned out that the loss of height on the head affected the cam timing and that when you have an OHC engine, milling the head changes the timing relationship betweent he crank and the camshaft. I would not have thought the difference was that great, but evidently it is. If I wanted more compression, I would get it via high-compression pistons.  
  Incidentally, the same friends (with a huge budget) recently did something like this with a 1964 Ferrari Lusso. Essentially they rebuilt the Lusso's 3liter engine to GTO specs, with six Weber deuces, JE pistons, and GTO profile cams, plus some headwork. The engine makes over 300hp, which is impressive from 183 Cu in. I don't think this is possible from the M130 engine; the Ferrari has some advantages in terms of OHC design and hemispheric combustion chambers. But it shows how good 1960s technology- German or Italian- can be, when judiciously updated and tuned. 100hp/liter is still a very high output for modern normally aspirated engines.

Cees Klumper

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2003, 01:24:21 »
Jim - I believe the solution for the "head planed, now cam timing's off" is an offset woodruff key - apparently they are available in different offsets that compensate for the degree shift in timing.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

ja17

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2003, 09:31:49 »
Hello Jim,
The standard high compression pistons in most 280-SL's provide 9.5 to 1 compression already. 98 octane fuel is reccomended. If you have higher compression pistons made you will need to use racing fuel.

Yes over-milling the cylinder head to provide higher compression will cause a nightmare of timing problems unless special fuels are used. I had to remove material from one over-milled head in order to get it to run correctly.

Consider extrude honing the intake manifold and or the exhaust manifold. The process forces different grades of polishing compound through the manifolds to produce a mirror like finish on the insides. This improves flow. The outside of the parts remains unchanged.

Balancing the engine creates better durability and improved performance.

Carefully lightening and polishing some engine parts may be possible after balancing (crankshaft, rods, flywheel, rocker arms).

Improvements in durability can be gained with performance upgrades if you do not get too radical.

The later Mercedes M110 engine as used in some later 6cyl Mercedes cars (w107 chasis 280-SL) used basically the same block and displacement (2.8 liter) as the W113 cars. It had a hemi cross draft cylinder head with dual camshafts and carbureted or CIS injected engine. The engines were very complicated to work on, and heavy. Unfortunately they were about the same horsepower as a good euro W113 280-SL. Mercedes went back to the simpler and lighter single overhead cam six in later cars ( 300 E cars etc). These engines did have cross flow heads (intake and exhaust on opposite sides).

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

n/a

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2003, 21:19:25 »
Joe and Cees, you are both right. My friends had to find out about the offset key the hard way; by figuring out what was wrong with the engine. The engine came in a restored car, ran poorly and arrived to them as a package.
   If/when I rebuild the engine in my 280SL, I am going to do what you suggest- 9.5 pistons, Euro cam, port/polish by extrude hone (like you, I am not too concerned with what the outside looks like) better ignition, etc. I think each of these mods is worth a little and together they will make an engine which will make the car appreciably quicker and more responsive. If I want sock-in-the-back acceleration, I'll drive the 6.3.

TR

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2005, 12:41:50 »
quote:
Originally posted by Malc

How about a supercharger?
In many ways less grief than turbo charging and "reversible" if required.
Malc



Malc -- That's exactly what I've been thinking / wondering about...and by that I mean adding a supercharger to my 71 280SL.  I've already done some of the things mentioned in this thread, such as placing a K&N filter straight onto the throttle body, replacing the cooling fan with electric fans (3), adding an electronic ignition with proper coil, etc.  And I’m pleased to report that power has improved noticeably.  The engine is new and tight, but I’m still looking for more power, and the idea of adding a supercharger is becoming seductive.

Comments / thoughts / suggestions anyone???

Thanks.

Tom in Boise



Benz Dr.

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Re: High performance engines???
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2005, 00:34:31 »
Never cut a cylinder head - EVER! unless you have to. Deck the block first if you have to but stay below the total amount the piston can stick out above the parting surface. I milled the block on the Red Rocket about .025'' and it brought the compression up 1 PSI per .001'' of cut. I'm running about 175 to 180 PSI right now and the only reason there's a small variation between cylinders is because some rods are longer than others. ( I should of had them matched )

The 230SL cam is the same as the euro 280SL cam one you advance it about 2 or 3 degrees.

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC