Fuel Injector Pump

[StevenF]

How do you know if you need your fuel injector pump rebuilt?
What symptoms would be noticeable?
Regards
Steven

[Shvegel]

Fuel in the oil is a really good indicator.  The injection pumps are fairly durable and after being in mine I am even more sure that many are rebuilt needlessly.  The injection pump is basically a small piston pump that displaces fuel.  The settings do not wander off very often and there are no seals that effect fuel delivery.  Probably the most common problem I hear for sending the pump for a rebuild is that the car will not start when the engine is hot.  This is usually caused by leaking delivery valves in the pump.  As it stands right now neither the early nor the late delivery valves are available. 

[StevenF]

Shvegel,
Thank you for your response.  The reason I am asking is because my mechanic (although one of the best in business) has mentioned that I should get it it rebuilt.  I have no leaks, my car is not one that has been sitting for 2 years (or older) in a garage and other than my most recent timing issues, I see no reason to touch "What ain't broken".  I even called a few of the recommended pump builders and they said that unless I am leaking that I should not touch the injector pump.  I recently installed the 123 ignition  and the mechanic (not my original mechanic) that did it screwed up my my timing and I have issues. 
What I have learned is that I have to bring it back to my original mechanic that specializes in our cars.  I am still puzzled as to why my specialist would recommend a rebuild on the fuel injection pump....?

Regards
Steven

[rjmarco]

I had my FIP rebuilt when I had my engine overhauled.  I didn't have any particular problems with my FIP other than oil leakage in my drip pan.  However, I felt with the engine out if was an opportune time to do it and Metric Motors coordinated all the work for me. 

I have also installed a 123 ignition.  It has been trouble-free. 

Rich

[Shvegel]

For what it’s worth I have stood in Hans’s office (H and R Fuel Injection) more than once listening to him on the phone talking a potential customer out of rebuilding their pump.  I did my own because I was just curious about how it all worked.  It didn’t need rebuilding.  If your’s ran well before the ignition system was changed I am sure it is fine.

On the surface ignition systems are very simple but they can underperform in a myriad of ways that can be hard to track down.  More than once I have seen the injection pump get blamed, rebuilt and then the ignition getting a second look.

[450sl]

You might want to check your vacuum for the 123. (might need to modify the vacuumport on the throttlebody).varies on models.

[Pawel66]

I recently installed the 123 ignition  and the mechanic (not my original mechanic) that did it screwed up my my timing and I have issues. 
What I have learned is that I have to bring it back to my original mechanic that specializes in our cars. 

Regards
Steven

I am wondering how you can screw up 123 installation. There are numerous posts on it on the forum as well as settings examples are there. Final test is with stroboscope lamp.

[StevenF]

Pawel
I couldn't agree with you more!  How they screwed it up is beyond me....
Steven

[perry113]

There is no other substitute.

Just pulled the one out of my barnfind 66 car.

Confirmed it does not move freely.

Good money spent to service and eliminate pump issues.

Send your injectors and cold start for checking and for pump set up.

I did my Light Ivory 65 15 years ago because that car too sat.

Straight forward to do 20 degrees ATDC on number 6.

Let me know if I can help.

Cheers

Peter

[Benz Dr.]

There is no other substitute.

Just pulled the one out of my barnfind 66 car.

Confirmed it does not move freely.

Good money spent to service and eliminate pump issues.

Send your injectors and cold start for checking and for pump set up.

I did my Light Ivory 65 15 years ago because that car too sat.

Straight forward to do 20 degrees ATDC on number 6.

Let me know if I can help.

Cheers

Peter

I set mine to 20 degrees ATDC on number one cylinder. I wonder if we're taking about the same thing?

[Shvegel]

Thanks Dan!  I was just sitting here going, " Number 6?  Crap, I set mine up to #1. Now I have to take it all apart again?"

[Benz Dr.]

Yeah, I think so.

[mbzse]

.../...I was just sitting here going, " Number 6?  Crap, I set mine up to #1.../..."

.../...Straight forward to do 20 degrees ATDC on number 6.../...

It is worthwhile to note, fuel line outlet No6 on top of FI pump (towards firewall) runs to injector nozzle on Cyl No1 (towards radiator).

[Benz Dr.]

That's why I wondered if we were taking about the same thing. Somehow, I think not and it's installed incorrectly.

[ja17]

I believe it is 20 ATDC of #1 cylinder of the engine.. for installation of the injection pump on our Pagodas.

[A Dalton]

I believe it is 20 ATDC of #1 cylinder of the engine.. for installation of the injection pump on our Pagodas.

 That is Correct,

 The engine should be set  @ 20 degrees atdc of the compression  stroke of # 1  cylinder before installing pump.

So, just look at the dist index mark/rotor for tdc and then go the extra 20 degrees, using the mark on the
balancer.
That equates to the engine being  @ 20 degrees into the power stroke...or  20 degrees PAST tdc of the compression stroke. of the #1 cylinder.......same  thing.

The trick is you do not want to be @ 20 degrees  of the intake stroke, which puts the pump 180 degrees out of time.
 When looking for compression stroke, the index mark on the distributor and rotor alignment verify you are on the compression stroke w/o having to look at the valve positions b/c the dist turns 1/2 speed of the crank and only fires ignition within a range at the end of compression stroke  .
If one sees the rotor facing opposite/away from the dist index mark, the engine is NOT on the compression stroke...and is known as being 180 degrees out of correct time.

This is a quick way to check which stroke the engine is at w/o taking the valve cover off...
Remember , all 4 stroke engines fire every other revolution, so timing is always done with the engine referenced to compression stroke.
In this case , 20  degrees past TDC of compression stroke...written 20 ATDC.........@ 1 cylinder.

There is also an index mark on the cam that indicates TDC/Compression /@1 cylinder.  This is  the same index mark used to check for chain stretch/offset keyway repair.

Either way, knowing these things lets you quickly verify TDC and compression stroke so you don't get 180 out on ign/pump/or valve timings.

Back in the old farm days, we just turned the engine over with a finger in the plug hole until we felt compression coming up, and then stuck a screwdriver in there and kept turning the crank until it came up as high as possible..that was TDC of compression stroke.
Still works.