Author Topic: ENGINE NUMBER (Read 8048 times)

John Betsch - "SADIE" · « **on:** February 07, 2018, 23:52:50 »

While verifying my engine number (which I am happy to say matched my data card) I took the attached picture. Would anyone know why there are rivet points showing below the tell/aggregat plate as shown? What could be missing?

Pawel66 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2018, 00:13:40 »

Well, this plate marks the replacement engine (Tauschaggregat). It is placed on the plate field. Perhaps the rivets and previous plate contour on the block is after the original plate. But why is it under the plate field - I do not know. I have usually seen plates riveted to the plate surface right under the number stamped on the block, where your replacement plate is.

But perhaps I have not seen enough of these plates and sometimes they were riveted a bit lower. I am not sure...

Vander · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2018, 00:37:18 »

As pawel said tauschaggregat means replacement motor. That is not the original motor. "Teil Nr" means part #

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2018, 07:35:42 »

Looks like the shop that installed the replacement engine punched the original engine number into the block. I have one or two of these replacement blocks with data plate, but it's only one plate, not two. My car also has a replacement engine that has no plate and no number.

John Betsch - "SADIE" · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2018, 17:38:52 »

I appreciate those taking the time to respond, however this car does not have a tauschaggregat ("Well, this plate marks the replacement engine (Tauschaggregat)" as written by Pawel66 or replacement motor. This has been verified by both 1994 MB Stuttgart letter, data card and a certificate of build. As stated in another received MBUSA letter Tell xxxxxxxxx and "Aggregat xxxxxx are part and casting number and engine number is stamped into the block which has been verified as is original.

Still leaves the question of what the rivet points below the mb plate might be there for. This is a European car, could it be something done in Europe or for Germany builds

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2018, 18:10:06 »

It looks like the numbers on the block don't match the numbers on the tag. From what I can make out it looks like a late 230SL with a standard trans.

John Betsch - "SADIE" · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2018, 18:27:54 »

Engine numbers stamped into the block are not meant to match the part/casting number on the shown plate The picture I sent was before the block was cleaned to clearly show the engine number which is 127981-xx-xxxxxx and matching the "Fahrzeug-Daten"

Pawel66 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2018, 19:17:59 »

I certainly do not know if your engine is a replacement engine or not.

Indeed the numbers on the Tauschaggregat plate number are part number (Teil, not Tell) and the engine replaced number, different than engine number on the block.

What you read in the Tech Manual is that very often, particularly in the US, the dealer who was replacing an engine stamped the block with the replaced engine number.

Not trying to arque if it is a replaced engine or not, it has a plate saying it is a replaced engine put by somebody sometime on it. And the mystery of two rivets below remains unresolved.

66andBlue · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2018, 19:22:26 »

If the numbers stamped into the block match the information on the data card for the car then you have to ask: when, why and who did rivet a plate to the same block indicating that it is a "Tauschaggregat"? And perhaps another lost plate where the additional rivets are.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2018, 19:36:44 »

Would you have to drill these holes below plate field to put in those rivets? There are no holes there normally, I think. This is quite some risk, I suppose, of drilling the block through...

John Betsch - "SADIE" · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2018, 19:44:45 »

Is everyone saying that the only time that plate is on an engine is for a replacement? Do new cars not come with that plate installed?

49er · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2018, 20:02:07 »

Pretty sure it was just stamped. Having a replacement engine is not necessarily a bad thing. My engine was replaced by Mercedes at around 24k due to a manufacturing flaw that caused high oil consumption which affected some early 280's. The engine block has no number stamped on it.

John

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2018, 21:54:46 »

Quote from: SADIE on February 08, 2018, 19:44:45

Is everyone saying that the only time that plate is on an engine is for a replacement? Do new cars not come with that plate installed?

the only engines with a plate I have seen are replacement engines. The plate on your engine says "tauschaggregat" which means "replacement engine". So I think you can safely assume that your engine is a replacement engine, that the installer punched the original engine number into, which was common in the day.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2018, 22:53:06 »

I also have a replacement engine with Tausch plate and with my number from datacard stamped on the block. That is why I was digging into this topic a few years ago. I was also writing to the Classic Center USA (as the car was exported at some stage to the US) and to Classic Center in Germany. I was asking if they had any records about this replacement. The USA told me "we do not have any history", German Classic Center chose to remain silent.

I will dig into EPC one day (maybe today) to see what I can find there on this.

Still, the mystery of the two bottom rivets on SADIE's block remains unsolved.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2018, 23:13:05 »

I did look into the EPC.

The number on my Tausch plate A1300100898 is, actually, ENGINE (025) As of engine 008389 LA

If SADIE's number on the plate is 1270107900 (not sure if I read it right), then you get what I placed in the attachment.

I do not know wha the other 6 digit number means - serial number?

John Betsch - "SADIE" · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2018, 23:47:13 »

Thanks to everyone, especially Pawel66 for their inputs. My car was imported to US ~1980 and I have records from the German owner who provided his "restoration info/bills/invoices.". Mine is a '65. The last German owner owned from 1976 till export and provided all his bills with no engine replacement work noted. No engine replacement was done in US. He actually tried to trace previous owners through local registration office without success. Genealogy would have been noteworthy to me. It's a shame that previous records appear non-existent/not available. I appreciate all the help.

"Sadie
ROT MET '65

Panzer82 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2018, 21:54:34 »

I would guess SADIE's engine is a replacement too... blocks can be stamped after the fact, in this case, perhaps with the 'correct' number as per the build card, but it seems quite honest for whoever did that to have left the 'replacement' engine tag on there too. When it was done, a brand new engine was probably a real 'selling point' for the car... while today, from a 'pure collectible' standpoint, it's not. Although, for a solid driver, a car to be enjoyed, not concours restored or something, I'd argue it is beneficial just based on the fact that it's, theoretically, newer with fewer miles. Int he end, documentation is the best way to help decide if it is or isn't.

Many engines came with the numbers stamped into the block AND on a plate riveted just below, new cars, from the factory and the numbers always match.

I have photos of all three types... 230, 250 and 280SL engines that I've taken over the years with the correct, original, from the factory engine numbers stamped in the block with the plate, right under the # stamped in the block with the same number. These were all original engine cars... stamped blocks with tags and matching #s.

I've always assumed all cars came with both and that, over the years, on the road, the plates worked themselves loose and fall off, as I've seen just as many engines with their correct, original engine - number stamped in the block with two empty rivet holes below.... I've got a bunch of photos of those too.

Why would there be rivet holes if there was never anything attached?

Pawel66 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2018, 22:21:45 »

I have come across 2 or 3 cars that were bought in Europe, imported to the US and have the Tausch plates. It is not high enough number to draw any conclusions, but: what were the legal requirements for emissions to make the car legal in the US? Would it be required to install the electronics? or also to replace the camshaft and other engine components that might have influenced the emissions?

Is it possible that the Tausch is somehow connected to importing a car bought in Europe to the US? Apart from Tausch being a regular spare part, of course.

John Betsch - "SADIE" · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2018, 00:06:55 »

Panzer82 wrote: "Many engines came with the numbers stamped into the block AND on a plate riveted just below, new cars, from the factory and the numbers always "match."

This is getting more and more interesting to me. I have a 1989 letter from MBUSA that says: "the number tell [sic] 270107900 and aggregat 350359 are part and casting number. This is not the motor number. The beginning eight digits of the engine number installed in a 230SL begin with 127981-12 ---- The complete number is fourteen digits and the last six digits are the sequential part of the motor number from which we will be able to determine if it is an original engine." It is stamped on the block

So--- what's the plate for?

Shvegel · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2018, 13:04:38 »

factory block serial numbers should look nice and even and in line. All the replacement engines that were stamped with the "Correct" number that I have seen have been obviously hand stamped and the numbers are not in line or evenly spaced. I'll add a picture on mine when I get out to the garage.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2018, 18:49:31 »

In the Technical manual we have examples of engines with stamped numbers on the block and with plates - I thought this was the usual way of marking the engine. But perhaps it also evolved, maybe the plate was omitted in later cars? What information was placed on the plate that would not be found on the block? I see just Typ 127.II, but have no clue what it means.

I looked at the way the numbers were stamped on the block - maybe there was an evolution in application technique. when you look at 130 engines - indeed the numbers are nice and even and have hyphens between segments of the numbers.

The one for 127981 looks a bit differently - but maybe because it is a prototype. The other 127 I cannot really see...

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2018, 20:19:48 »

Early cars usually had both engine plates and stamped numbers unless it was a replacement engine. By the time 280SL's were being produced engine tags were pretty much a thing of the past from everything I've seen. Replacement engine tags is something I've never seen and most of the replacement blocks I've come across had no numbers at all.

Original engine numbers mean next to nothing for our cars when you can stamp in whatever the car left the factory with.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2018, 20:24:53 »

I think I have a stupid question to ask: does anybody know what was required to change in the car when it was brought from Europe to the US to make it legal? Is it possible that it was actually paying out to replace the engine with the US specs at the dealer's? Especially that the engine that would be removed had some value.

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2018, 20:59:51 »

Hi Pawel66 - i think it is extremely unlikely that any car imported to the US would have to have its engine replaced for import purposes. Less than 1/10th of 1 % likely ;-)

Pawel66 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2018, 21:42:58 »

I knew it was a stupid question...

I placed a disclaimer about it.

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Author Topic: ENGINE NUMBER (Read 8048 times)

Panzer82