Apparently missmatching VIN for this 280 SL

[ericeppe]

Hello everybody,

looking to buy my first Pagoda, I have found a lot of very good informations on this site, I'd like to get your expert eyes on this car plate.

Attached is a pic of the car plate, according to it, the car was built on December 70, and serial number is 022497.
problem I have is, if I interpret correctly the table under "Production Statistics, Exports and US Model Year" on this site, I see that a December 70 serial should be in the range 022556 -> 023111

Thus this plate should represent an October 70, not a December 70 car.... meaning this is not the original plate (at minimum).

Don't want to be too paranoid but, am I missing anything here ?

Any help or clarification would be really Appreciated.

Also, any idea how I can see if the engine in this car is a matching number (in the range of this car's plate)?
i have 1309831000117 for the engine number.

Thanks much.

Eric.

[Jordan]

Based on the plate it suggests a Nov '70 production date but I see no reason why the plate is not original.  The VIN's in the table may be off somewhat as your plate suggests.  If you are concerned about the VIN itself you can check the frame rail near the air filter.  The owner should be able to get a build card from the MB Classic Center.  This will give you the original engine and transmission number as well as colour codes and all the options the car started with.

[cabrioletturbo]

Manufacture date (shown on the plate) and the first registration date may not be the one and the same.
Different jurisdictions were recording different dates on their first-time ownerships. For example, you could have ordered a car in November 1969 and the delivery of the said vehicle could have happened some time in March 1970. The vehicle, although built in 1970, would still be recorded as 1969 model year. My 1965 230SL is actually 1966-built car.

There are also examples of the opposite happening. I do not believe it is of concern, as long as your data card, VIN plate, paint plate and vin stamp are all in sync AND the VIN number (on your VIN plate) matches to the one listed on your Title/Ownership document.  We had some posts recently about that...here>> https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=27673.0

In regards to the engine number match, your source is data card. Either the current owner has it, or could order one from MB classic centre.

[ejboyd5]

Manufacture date (shown on the plate) and the first registration date may not be the one and the same.
Different jurisdictions were recording different dates on their first-time ownerships. For example, you could have ordered a car in November 1969 and the delivery of the said vehicle could have happened some time in March 1970. The vehicle, although built in 1970, would still be recorded as 1969 model year. My 1965 230SL is actually 1966-built car.

Interesting observation that i have not before encountered.  Examples abound of cars built in one year but remaining unsold or undelivered being labeled as a later year car, but yours is the first I've heard of a car being made older than it actually is.

[kampala]

Eric,

The VIN you show on the plate is 113 044 12 xxxxxx.   The 12 would mean that this car would be a left hand drive AUTOMATIC.   

The Engine number you describe is 130 983 10 xxxxx.  The 10 would be a 12 if it was from a left hand drive automatic.  This engine number would imply that it's a left hand drive MANUAL.

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/EngineNumber

So - you may want to describe for us a little more or provide more photos.   Is the car Automatic or Manual? 

[Pawel66]

As suggested: Look for the VIN number on the frame - it is under the large hose that goes from throttle to the air filter, you need to look underneath to see it. There may ba a need to clean it a bit. This has to match the data card that the owner can receive from Mercedes.

The engine number should be on the block, under spark plugs close to cylinder 5, drivers side for LHD (look in Technical Manual). It should be stamped on the machined surface, the digits are stamped nice and even. It also should match the data card.

Those, in my view, are more important than what is on the plate.

Clarify the automatic/manual question a fellow member has asked.

If the engine number is different - it is not the end of the world. Iti s not "matching numbers" though. The frame VIN is critical. The plate you can buy for $20 on ebay and engrave what you want.

Gear box also has the number...

[ericeppe]

Thank you all for all these infos,

Not sure I have catched correctly all the replies.

I don't currently have the data card handy (i've asked) but from the VIN on the plate, my understanding is what is represented here is the manufactured date, NOT the date of ownership transfer to the first customer, thus if that car was really manufactured on 12/70 the serial # should be a later one, that's why i'm questioning myself about the "fakeness" of that plate (I know anyone can make it's own).
The production statistics table that I have found in these pages is 100% correct/trusted by this forum, right ? Hence the car plate is a fake!

Regarding the engine, with your explanations, YES, it's a LHD, and NO it's not a Manual but an automatic, thus it's not matching numbers BUT the engine itself comes from another 280SL ;-)
The engine # is stamped correctly, I also have another serial that I don't know what it relates to, see attached pic (052).

Actual papers are reporting the above mentioned VIN and engine #.

I'm waiting for the Data Card.

Thanks again.

Eric.

[Benz Dr.]

Matching numbers means very little on our cars because a 280SL is not a car that can be cloned. There wasn't a high performance version with a special cylinder head. Rare options are different and they can add quite a bit to value.

Your engine is an early 1968 model year and the transmission is a match to it being only 20 numbers different.

[Pawel66]

Eric, in the first post I believe you showed the plate on pillar B, driver's side, correct? Perhaps the fellow members can help in this:

1. The plate on pilar B - this is the US plate. Euro cars did not have it. Was it attached in the factory or was it attached in the US at the dealer?
2. The date on this plate - is it a manufacturing date or the date the car arrived in the US?
3. Even if this plate was applied in the factory - is it possible that there is a couple of months difference between actual manufacturing and application of plate and shipping the car?

I do not think that it is always straight and immediate - manufacturing, number, date, shipment sale, registration - there are different stories and there may be different time intervals.

Do you have the picture of the colour code plate? This is where you have options as well, to verify if they are on your car.

[ericeppe]

Pawel,

I don't have the colour plate picture, not part of the initial photo batch I received.
I have asked the seller, along with the data card if available.

Might get them on monday. Tt will obviously deliver a whole more info.

This car also don't have its hard top, being new to the SL, I've learnt (from you guys) that Hard top was even an option and if the colour plate has no color engraved for the hard top, it should mean that car was not delivered with it, hence a roadster.
I'm guessing that it is possible to install a hard top even if it was not delivered with that car, I was looking to spare hard tops with teinted glass and it sounds like it could cost anything between 2K to 3K, plus additional refurb. costs.
Again this will mean non matching numbers as body # is engraved on each top.

Will look at that later when I bought the car.

Thx.

Eric.

[Pawel66]

Eric, on the colour code plate there is a code saying if the car was delivered with or without hard or soft top. In my view if the car came without hard top and you would fit one, that has nothing to do with matching numbers.

On colour code plate you would also have the chassis number. This will tell you the numbers that should be stamped on various body parts, which is probably more important for "matching numbers".

As per the codes on the colour code plate my car came without a soft top. POs fitted a 230SL soft top (I did not see any number on it). Again, nothing to do with matching numbers, could be a discussion about the car value as it came without a soft top, but I think this is immaterial. If I throw away a soft top - wuold it be matching numbers then?

Much more important: conditoin of the chassis and completeness of the car.

[Cees Klumper]

I know someone not too far from you that had a hard top in good condition not long ago. Pm me if you'd like to see if he still has it.

[Jonny B]

Another point to look at - if this car is a US version, there should be a small tab visible through the windshield on the driver's side with the VIN stamps on it. This was a mandate by the US to have a "visible VIN"

[Benz Dr.]

There seems to be a growing interest in matching numbers for 113's but our cars are not Hemi Cudas or 427 Vetts.  The very fact that dealers were instructed to stamp the old serial number of the original engine block into a replacement should tell you that matching numbers means next to nothing for our cars. When bidders start paying 50K more at auction for a matching numbers car then I'll change my tune.

[ericeppe]

Well, you are probably right, I might take the matching numbers in too high interest in this case.
This would be my first SL and also my first frame off restoration car, I'm usually trying to buy, few owners, original condition, matching numbers vehicles because I like to feel their history.... but I'm getting lazy and don't have enough time to do that again ;-)
Will follow your advise and my feeling, a Pagoda probably deserves confidence.

Rgds.

Eric.

[ericeppe]

Yep, thanks, will look at that.
i'm pretty sure it's a US car.

[ericeppe]

Thanks Cees for the offer,

let's buy the car first and I'll get back to you when it's done.

Regards.

E.

[Benz Dr.]

If this car is a 1970 and is a USA model it may still have all of the parts for that type of ignition system. This system can still be made to work providing it has the correct distributor. If it has the original cast iron distributor that came with the 1968 engine that's in it now, it won't work as well as it could.

The late ignition system is very different than the earlier point and coil system it that it has speed relays, a vacuum switch over valve, different throttle valve housing, ignition box, thermo switches, and a totally different distributor.  I find the earlier system to be much more easy to sort out and tune due to a much more simple array of parts. If you find some sort of hybrid system you might find the early system easier to work on and find parts.

[mdsalemi]

...but our cars are not Hemi Cudas or 427 Vetts...

Back in the muscle car era, the true muscle cars (Mustangs with 351 Cleveland engines, Dodge Super Bees, etc. were nothing more than tarted up sedans/coupes with a few special parts and engines. So, you cannot just take a 351 put it in a Mustang and suddenly have a 1971 Boss 351, goodness if you did it better not be with a Windsor engine! You cannot take a 426 Hemi engine and put it in a Plymouth Coronet, tart it up a bit and call it a Road Runner. Distinguishing some of these relatively low production muscle cars from ersatz home-brew versions is the purpose behind "numbers matching".

That's why it's not so important for us, but plenty of us see sedan engines in the SL's.