Author Topic: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes  (Read 4250 times)

Klaus Pieper

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1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« on: October 15, 2018, 14:32:03 »
The causes of, and also correcting, erratic and hard gear changes in automatic gear boxes has been covered extensively on this great Forum as well as in the Technical Manual.  I have followed the advice given step by step but unfortunately I am missing something as the problem persists. My prognosis is that the modulator linkage rod at the double acting solenoid on the gear box is in the forward position, when the ignition is switched on and at idle, instead of in the backward position.  Why would that be?

The 230 SL's automatic gear box was replaced with an automatic gear box , K4A025 GA 280SE, from a 280 SL.

The wiring harness from the automatic gear box has the following cables:
    Small lug - black
    Medium lug - white cable
    Large lug - 2x brown cables

The wiring harness from the car has the following cables:
    Small lug - black/red
    Medium lug - brown/white
    Large lug - brown
    To pressure switches - green/red

With the cables matched as per lug size the modulator linkage rod moves as follows:
    Ignition on and accelerator in idling position - forward position
    Ignition on and accelerator partly depressed - middle (neutral) position
    Ignition on, accelerator partly depressed and kick down switch also depressed - forward position

I have also switched the brown and brown/white cables to see if the cables were on the incorrect lugs, but that confused the issue even more.

Your help will be greatly appreciated.
Klaus

Pawel66

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 22:50:25 »
Klaus,

I never understood the polarity of three-way solenoid connections stated in the Technical Manual, because it is reverse on my 280SL. Maybe on 230SL you have B+ on the large lug... I have ground. In the Tech Manual it is shown solenoid is powered from fuse no. 3, which is not true for my car. Kick down/throttle switch are powered from fuse 3. I think the description may be wrong (reversed polarity). Or is true for some cars only.

So in essence for 280SL:
- voltage on medium lug moves solenoid from middle to aft (this is what you have wrong, you say it goes forward) - this voltage is provided by ignition through throttle switch; you switch on ignition, solenoid moves aft
- voltage on small lug moves solenoid forward - this voltage is provided by kickdown switch (+) in my car
- no voltage on neither lug - solenoid is in medium position - this happens when ignition is on and gas pedal is depressed a bit (throttle switch cuts off voltage from medium lug)

The third wire is ground in my car (large lug). You may want to check if you harness from the car delivers as above. If yes - maybe the wires on the gear box are mixed. But if your large lug wire delivers B+, then the description in Technical Manual is correct for certain cars and there is a polarity trouble. But I do not think so.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 22:59:58 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

WRe

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2018, 07:11:31 »
Hi Klaus,
Maybe this wiring info can help you.
...WRe

Klaus Pieper

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2018, 08:23:37 »
Thank you very much Pawel and WRe for your quick response.
Pawel, please excuse my ignorance. What is B+ ?
My 230 SL's cable colours differ from those of the 280 SL's wiring diagram.  I will try and get under the car this weekend again and then report back.
Regards, Klaus

mbzse

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2018, 08:57:08 »
Quote from: Klaus Pieper
.../... excuse my ignorance. What is B+ ? .../..
The Wiki on this website is your friend. For the standard designations see:
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Bosch
/Hans S

WRe

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2018, 13:31:46 »
Hi,
Maybe this fits better.
...WRe

Pawel66

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2018, 16:40:43 »
Thank you very much Pawel and WRe for your quick response.
Pawel, please excuse my ignorance. What is B+ ?
My 230 SL's cable colours differ from those of the 280 SL's wiring diagram.  I will try and get under the car this weekend again and then report back.
Regards, Klaus

It is Battery +. Again, I do not know the 230SL installation. For 280SL it is wrong (as you see on the pictures in the posts). There is ground on large lug in 280SL.

You need to understand how it works - then you will quickly figure out what is wrong. I would say you should have ground on black/red wire on the car side and it should go to large lug. But I may be wrong if the car was driving ok before with the wires like you described. Then the factor that changed is the gearbox - maybe wires are mixed there.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Klaus Pieper

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 08:58:32 »
Thank you all very much.  You have given me a lot of information to digest.  Hopefully I will get enough time on the weekend to make some progress.  I will keep you posted.
Regards, Klaus

Klaus Pieper

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2018, 14:09:53 »
I finally managed to spend some time under my 230 SL and with a bit of help from a friend discovered a partial solution to my problem.  As suggested by the forum, the cables from the big lug and the small lug were switched.  I now moved the black/red cable from the small lug to the large lug and the brown cable from the large lug to the small lug, leaving all the cables from the three position solenoid as they were before.  I had done this on a previous occasion but without success.  What made me do this swap again was that my friend suggested that before I do anything I should measure the voltage at the output of the idling switch and again at the cable connector at the gearbox.  The voltage at the idling switch was 12,8 volt and at the cable connector 5,6 volt.  This low voltage was obviously not strong enough for the three position solenoid to push the rod in a backward position (the direction with the most resistance).  I temporarily remedied this by running an additional cable from the idling switch to the middle lug of the cable connector at the gear box - the voltage came up to 10,8 volt.

I mentioned a partial solution - when driving the car gear changes are much improved, but kickdown does not work, although the three position solenoid moves the rod forward when depressing the kickdown switch.  I presume that this is however not an electrical problem but a gearbox problem?

So the immediate attention will be to solve the kickdown issue and find out where the voltage loss between the idling switch and the cable connector occurs.

Your input will be greatly appreciated.

Pawel66

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2018, 17:27:27 »
The real mechanics fellow Members will correct me if I am wrong.

But perhaps if the rod is activated by the kick-down switch, obtaining down shift action may be related to modulator pressure adjustment?

Otherwise - the car starts from 2, shifts up and down ok? No clunks on shifting down when you stop?
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Klaus Pieper

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2018, 10:22:26 »
Thank you Pawel,  the gear changes are smooth, no hard knocks, but there is slippage at times mainly when the gear box has changed down to 2nd gear when stopping and one then takes off again.  I think you are right that the pressure needs to be checked.

Pawel66

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2018, 10:41:39 »
Klaus, there may be a million reasons, I think for the malfunctions there, but I think we always start by checking simple, non-expensive things. Just please bear in mind that these automatics work when everything is in order (as it is all interrrelated) - linkage, vacuum, ignition timing etc.

Here is a passage from Joe from Technical Manual:

"Trying to help my mechanic here with any of your great ideas. Presently we seem to have all sorted out with the transmission, but we can't get the kickdown to work. We discovered a broken wire which prevented the relay from letting the kickdown solenoid on top of the tranny to work; now that is all working, but still no kickdown. His next task is to remove the solenoid (remember it is working) and try to engage the kickdown manually from the top of the transmission while the car is in motion. Anyone have any ideas on this? Can the transmission seemingly work fine (shifts pretty nicely), but no kickdown working internally? As I mentioned we do have the solenoid and kickdown circuitry working, and we think there is enough travel on the solenoid as well. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Joe Alexander: you can remove the access cover on the passenger side tunnel area and observe the movement of the transmission linkage and three position solenoid, while test driving the car. You will need a second person and a flashlight. The kickdown or passing gear switch on the floor under the accelerator pedal must be engaged and working to activate the solenoid. When fully depressed this switch is engaged and it energizes the three position solenoid which will move the control pressure linkage on the side of the transmission. This linkage changes the control pressure at the modulator assembly on the transmission and causes the downshift. Make sure you have power going in and out of the accelerator kickdown switch when it is depressed. Next try observing the operation of the three position solenoid. Position one at idle in gear, position two after driving off, position three at full throttle (accelerator fully depressed and switch engaged). If all seems to be working ok then more complicated adjustments can be made at the modulator or the linkage on the transmission (do this only as last resort and after everything else is checked out). Let me know what you find. Good Luck, sounds like you are getting close.

I finally got a call yesterday from the mechanic, and my car is done. Turns out that the transmission passing gear issue was, and many of the "clean up" and "sorting out" issues he discovered were matters of adjustments as I thought. In the initial case of the kickdown issue, 1st there were wiring problems, wires on the tranny were in the wrong place. 2nd, there was a broken wire on the harness at the relay. When those items were repaired, then the solenoid was able to work. Manually, they were able to get the kickdown to work; however the solenoid did not give enough travel in order to activate automatically. They tell me that the final resolution was linkage adjustment AND a bent "rod". When they straightened the bend rod (I think this is that the solenoid pushes on in the tranny) and adjusted the linkage, voila, it all works."

Perhaps also you may check this voltage topic, you say you had 10.8V. Was this with the engine running? I am not sure that the 3-position solenoid will work properly at 10.8V. You need more than 11V.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Klaus Pieper

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2018, 11:59:48 »
Hello Pawel, I have checked all setting and adjustments and they all seem to be in order.  Despite the "lowish" voltage, the double acting solenoid engages both the forward and backward positions solidly.  The next area to tackle is to check the modulator pressure.
Many thanks for you help.

Pawel66

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Re: 1965 230 SL Automatic erratic gear changes
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2018, 08:15:39 »
I hope you will get there without conclusion that there is an internal issue with the transmission of any sort.

I do not like the low voltage - it is better to do the solenoid action tests with engine running to get voltage proper (pressure you have to have the engine running, vacuum disconnected), so if the voltage is low when the engine is running - I am not sure if this is ok. Have you tried to hook another wire to power the solenoid? Is your overall voltage on battery terminals ok when the engine is running?

Make sure you get the pressure test values correct, best straight from the BBB table. There were mistakes in the posts here and in Technical Manual on units conversions, I remember.

I cut out the "tool" for pressure adjustment from a piece of sheet metal, but I am sure there are better ways of doing it. I remember I had to start with the rod length adjustment before I finished with the adjustment screw. Lack of kick-down suggests the rod may be too long. Shorter rod - higher pressure.

Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class