Limits of Pagoda Originality

[Nicolas Aristodemou]

I was wondering how far one could go in making subtle improvements to the Pagodas while still maintaining an "original" car.

Surely in the eyes of the purists and the serious collectors the car should be as original as the day it left the factory. That is one side of the coin and a well understood position. I believe  however, that most of us would not only tolerate modern improvements but would happily adopt them in order to improve the driveability of the cars, smoothness and in order to reduce maintenance.

For example, I think that many of us would be happy with the replacement of the old Bosch distributors with an 123 electronic ignition; similar in appearance but what a difference in smoothness and performance..... another example would be a modern AC compressor (Sanden) coupled to a electric cooling fan and a modern condenser, while keeping, of course, the original Frigiking evaporator inside the car.

So coming back to my original questions what are the limits of enhancements that can be made to our Pagodas while maintaining originality in the eyes of most people?

Could we come up with a list of "acceptable enhancements" considered by the more experienced of us as improvements that do not go over the top?

Food for thought.....surely engine and/or gearbox swaps for modern units are out of the question, but there could be lots of things that could be undertaken to "enhance" our cars without taking away any of their undisputable charm.

[teahead]

The dizzy and AC compressor "improvements" I think actually would add a tiny bit of value than the OEM unless you're talking about a 100-point $200k show car.

Folks like to drive these cars; not be in museums.

These are somewhat simple bolt-ons/bolt-offs.  Keep the originals in a box for safe-keeping, but I would much rather have these "improvements" if in a buying mode.

Now for stick shift cars, keeping the original trans would be okay, but I think a Getrag 265 conversion would ALSO add value.  Much more so than a 3.27 rear swap would.  Get the best of both worlds with an overdrive to calm down that low 3.69/3.92/4.0.2 rear end.

Color change...that depends.  If the original color is not a fan favorite, then I see no decrease in value if you go with something more appealing.

[cfm65@me.com]

Hi Gents,
Although I am all for keeping the original, I have made some small “improvements” to some of my cars.
1. I changed my LHD MGB to RHD
2. Changed my 28 Ford Pickup and my 29 Chevy to 12 volt
3. Fitted MGB shocks to my 29 Chevy
4. Fitted Series II brakes to my Series I E Type
5. 5 Speed Getrag to my Auto Pagoda
6. 123 Ignition to my E Type, Pagoda and MG
7. Upgraded E Type to 4 core radiator and improved fan as well as improved cabin fan.
8. Fitted electrical cutoff switches to all my classics
My 911 is stock standard with 275,000 km on the clock
Regards
Chris
Cape Town

[JamesL]

The dizzy and AC compressor "improvements" I think actually would add a tiny bit of value than the OEM unless you're talking about a 100-point $200k show car.

Folks like to drive these cars; not be in museums.

These are somewhat simple bolt-ons/bolt-offs.  Keep the originals in a box for safe-keeping, but I would much rather have these "improvements" if in a buying mode.

Now for stick shift cars, keeping the original trans would be okay, but I think a Getrag 265 conversion would ALSO add value.

The cars like to be driven and most of us enjoy driving them. Yet the act of doing that decreases "value" in monetary terms.

I'm sort of in the place of wanting to use the car to make memories as that's what is "value" to me.  To do that it needs to work. That said, I have a 123 ignition, modern radio, the 14"ally wheels with hubcaps, LED bulbs, fittings for a tripmeter, immobiliser, extra 12v/USB supply on the tunnel, 3.46 diff and so forth. Would it win a concourse? hell no. Is it less valuable than it could be? Yes as it's used but I bought what a seller would call an "older restoration" (25 years old) in which MB Tex Cognac was swapped for Leather. Could it be "put back to original"? Easily at a cost but the monetary value is, I think, in a sorted, useable car as the "original" ship sailed a very long time ago: unlike Thelews car which is a timewarp original. Sticking anything on that which is not a simple bolt on/bolt off would be stupid and decrease value - in all it's definitions.

I am from the camp of "it's your car, do what you want  with it" - so if that means wire wheels or a v8, good luck - not necessarily my thing but... The joy of this place is people know what left Sindelfingen and some folk have those cars or are recreating them. But that isn't for all of us. I've never driven another Pagoda so have no idea what "original" feels like.

[mbzse]

.../... I've never driven another Pagoda so have no idea what "original" feels like

Good grief, James - had I but known... Well, next time we meet, you shall be behind the wheel of my 280!

[lowpad]

I had a chance to see the Christoph Kromm's beautiful 6.3 Pagoda at Essen this year (https://www.kromm-pagode.de/en).  Herr Kromm has done a masterful job of picking up where Mercedes left off, adding both air conditioning (without, apparently, the typical cheap underdash vent setup) and air suspension.  I love what he's done, but I'd choose a 4.5 instead, adding a modern 6-speed manual as well as power windows using period MB switch hardware.  It would still be period correct, but a bit more fun to drive. 

[lreppond]

Who wouldn’t want a 6.3 under the hood?!  That kind of power on air suspension ride would be so exhilarating.  How he managed to cram all this parts in that small space is, indeed, ”masterful”.

I wonder though, had Waxenberger been successful in getting a 6.3 into w113 production how close would some of the refinements be to Kromm’s attempt???

Accolades said, the entire soul of the pagoda experience would be lost with such a makeover. I think what others on this thread have done in terms of changes from original still hover in the realm of “originality” but, more importantly,  still retain the soul of the car we love. 

[lowpad]

Well, it appears that Mercedes didn't want a 6.3 under the hood -- mostly because it was a terror to drive: https://mercedesheritage.com/mercedes-heritage/6-3-liter-pagoda-dead-on-arrival.  I suspect that the original 6.3 was nothing more than a "what if" that was never intended for production.  But it must have been fun!

[MikeSimon]

Let's look at the history of the 6.3L: It was originally conceived for the 600. Then MB put it in a 300SEL and created the fastest sedan of its time. Even in that heavy car it was slightly oversized. Don't think I would want it in a Pagoda. I had the opportunity to drive both the 300SEL 6.3 and the later 450SEL 6.9. Both monsters and a tad out of their element considering engine performance compared to braking and handling. A "small" V8, like a 3.5L would be perfectly fine.

[lreppond]

I’ve driven a 600 SWB many times and that engine suits it well.  Even though it appears to be a land yacht, it’s actually nimble as well as peppy.  I’ve never driven a 6.3 but I’ve been a passenger in one with a mad man behind the wheel.  It was a thrill ride to say the least!  One of my former neighbors owned a 6.9 but I only drooled over the burled wood dash.  Never even got to sit inside.  Outside, it was probably the most unappealing car with those 70’s bumpers. 

[Mike Hughes]

"C'était un rendez-vous" was filmed by Claude Leloach using his own 450SEL 6.9 as the camera car.  Eight minutes five seconds from Porte Dauphine to Sacré Cœur implies some semblance of reasonable handling...