Yet another Production Number related question

[RobSirg]

Was just wondering....

I've read many times in past posts about estimates of RHD productions and estimates of Manual transmissions, etc.

Surely MB must have records of each and every production number? And I believe these records have now been stored electronically ( which justifies the AU$200+ charge for the last datacard I requested). Assuming these records exist - I would assume it could be determined exactly how many RHD280SL's, or, how many Manual 230SL's were produced for example.

Even the Italians (with their scant records) can tell me the exact number of RHD Alfa Romeo Duetto's that were produced (same era as the Pagoda).

Is there a logical reason why this data is not available?

p.s - I'm guessing someone has asked this question previously but I could not readily find it. There were so many past posts related to production numbers.

[Aaron h]

Mercedes never kept records of how many were RHD or LHD.  Nor did they keep any records of how many standard shift or automatic models were made. There are even some production changes that were never noted/recorded.  If there were records kept regarding any of the aforementioned they weren't ever released to the public, and likely destroyed every 2-3 years when files were purged. The only thing they kept records on in this regard, and for public consumption,  was with was how many models were made each year and total production.  It's probably just as well that they didn't note or keep records of things like RDH/LHD or standard shift/automatic, as modern day sellers may try to use that information to place more value on the already overpriced Pagoda models.

[RobSirg]

Thanks Aaron,

I appreciate that MB didn’t keep such records, however my point is: it would not be difficult for MB to calculate such statistics given the information they have in the VIN numbers on record.
I’ll leave it for everyone to decide what they will do with such information, but l would find it interesting to know.
Just as l find it interesting there were   only 5196 250SL’s made ( doesn’t make them any more valuable though 

[Aaron h]

I have to assume that such date was largely unimportant to Mercedes.  I can see why, as that information was somewhat useless at the time.  I understand what you're talking about now....since most of the data cards are electronically stored now.  It would be really easy for a program to be written that flags RHD and Manual shift cars, filter all of the stored data card files through the program, and we'd magically have the information we're after.  The problem is that none of us have access to that database, and Mercedes, even in their multi billion dollar net worth, would likely never sanction such a frivolous expense. 

This business about Mercedes now charging $150-$200 for a copy of our data cards is asinine.  The total cost of having scanned all of the data cards into electronic form was recouped in under a year.  They started doing this electronic storage many years ago, so over time the cost was negligible.   So now, after Mercedes robs you of $150-$200, all they have to do is literally send four emails.  One from the car owner to the classic center, one from the classic center to Fellbach, one from Fellbach back to the Classic center, and then the final email back to the car owner.  I can understand charging a $10-$20 fee for a data card, but not $150-$200.  It's pure robbery.

And why do we have to pay for something that we already own a part of?  If we own the car, then a certain percentage of the data card belongs to us  by default.....a straight forward matter of fact. Now, I'm sure some of you may argue otherwise.  However, to further extrapolate, ask yourself these questions:
Are happy with paying taxes on property you own?
Are you happy with paying more for a part than what it retails for?
Most of us would not be happy with either.  I view the $150-$200 charge for a data card in the same way.  Please bear in mind that this is my view on the subject matter, and isn't the gospel or carved in stone.  Only my view.  I don't want to ruffle any feathers. 

[MikeSimon]

I am pretty sure Mercedes DID keep records of how many manuals were built, how many RHD models were built and how many "California Coupes" left the factory.
Mercedes is just notoriously arrogant and does not disclose this information to the public.
I worked at Vickers Power Steering in Germany from 1987 to 1988, before my transfer to the U.S. and my SL was a "Classic" (sorry Don Caron!) already. We had a great relationship with Mercedes back then as they were our biggest customer, but I tried several times for information about my w133 with no avail.
Even when I brought my car to the U.S. and tried to get help from them to "federalize" it, I got nothing!

[114015]

No, Rob & Mike,
Aaron is just correct on this point. 
Mercedes-Benz (the Archive) in those days just did not put this anyhow in an electronic system, that's it.
All the "old info" was manual/non-digital. 

Sure, at some point the real hardcopy datacards were copied on microfiches and later on scanned digitally (or so),
but nevertheless, that doesn't render the info digital in the way we wish to have it today.
Someone (!) would have to fill all that info of 48,912 datacards manually (!) into a database,
or maybe a perfect scanning system could do so also,
but honestly, they just don't think it is worth the (student's school punishment) effort.
And then there are all the 111's/112's and all the other interesting cars... Why only the Pagoda...?

They only kept - as Aaron already stated - the number of some key export countries (like US) and the number of produced units per month...
I am confident there is in the archive on the ordering documentation of each single car somewhere even the real actual date of production (i.e. finalization of production) that _is not_ on the datacard (!) - but they just don't bother to tell us - to the public.

About 10 years ago, Manfred Luft, the former German President of the (German)  SL Club Pagode, was for months in the Archive and was able to talk to old production-involved people (as far as they were still alive at that timepoint anymore and (!) could even remember how it was in the old days about datacards, data codes, color codes and production preparation and all this ... and he compiled this knowledge in two brochures - which were published by the Club about 8-10 years ago.
And Guenter Engelen, our author of the well known "Pagoda book", or bible (so to speak) was for months in the archive...
... but this kind of info you guys are looking for is just not available, does not exist (how many Californias, how many RHD) or is not accessible to the public (like date of production).

At this point I fully agree (again) with Aaron....

Sorry, Gentlemen, that I do not have any better news on this here...

Achim
(Pagoda aficionado as well)

[RobSirg]

Thanks everyone,

I understand and agree with all replies, but l prefer to go with “MB couldn’t be bothered...”.

It would not be very difficult or costly to use today’s technology to scan in the information - even if it only exists in hard copy.
...and yes, they could do it for all classic models not just W113’s.

I’ve recently read the effort, expense and commitment that other Marques have undertaken ( Maserati, etc) to uphold and share the historical information. So it is a little disappointing that MB couldn’t be @*#ed.
( and before anyone reminds me about the greater production numbers in MB ...think also about the greater revenue).

Anyway - not something l will ‘die-in-a-ditch’ over. I still love my Pagoda’s.

And l didn’t even mind paying the $200+ for the datacard info for my recently acquired 190SL, as they also gave me the production/order certificate... which was nice. ( mind you they first dismissed my chassis number as incorrect, but a little persistence on my part paid off😊)

[Pawel66]

It would not be very difficult or costly to use today’s technology to scan in the information - even if it only exists in hard copy.
...and yes, they could do it for all classic models not just W113’s.

I’ve recently read the effort, expense and commitment that other Marques have undertaken ( Maserati, etc) to uphold and share the historical information. So it is a little disappointing that MB couldn’t be @*#ed.
( and before anyone reminds me about the greater production numbers in MB ...think also about the greater revenue).

Just a small point here, if I may. I am not an expert on car manufacturing, but I can imagine the effort and expense to scan, process and store this kind of data. If you take into consideration the scale of Maserati and the scale of Daimler, it is getting quite clear why some did that and some did not. Particularly that the benefits of this, actually, are pretty small for any party involved, in fact. No intention of glorifying Daimler - they are just a company trying to do things the rational way, some of them we may not like, e.g. margins on spare parts (which, by the way, I do not like, but I can understand too).

[MikeSimon]

Here is my take, and I stand by it:
I worked in the Automotive industry all my life. Every manufacturing plant, parts or vehicle, has and had (forever) a quality control department that was also responsible for a "final inspection" send-off at the end of the line. There, the specific details of the object were recorded/noted. Together with a specific ID/serial number for the individual item, key features were kept on record.
I don't know what the 'archives" contain and what MB was usually disclosing to anybody from the outside, but the data is there. Somewhere.

[Aaron h]

There can be a few schools of thought on all of this.  On one hand, Mercedes knew that they could decipher whether or not a car was LHD, RHD, automatic, or standard shift just by looking at the VIN.  With that system in place there would have been no need to note which ones were RHD, LHD, automatic, or standard shift. 

On the other hand, Mercedes was notorious for not following industry standards.  Maybe every one else had a QC department that noted RHD, LHD, automatic, or standard shift on at the end of the inspection, but Mercedes may not have.  They pretty much did things their own way, which might be relevant to Mike's commentary about them maybe being arrogant and not sharing the information in that if they did note this information they may not have published it out of pure spite.

It wasn't required by any law of the time to note any of the aforementioned, and if not noting as such cut production costs then Mercedes probably opted to go that route.  Or maybe they only noted which cars were fitted with an automatic since it it was such an expensive option (at the time in Europe). 

They were good about giving out production figures, but even those were skewed quite badly.  For example, take the W111 3.5 cabriolet.  Every bit of information we can find states that only 1,232 of the 3.5 cabriolets were made.  Yet, in the last 5-7 years there have been approximately 15 of these 3.5 cabriolets show up that were wayyyy past the last noted VIN.  And they weren't coupe` models that had been made into a cabriolet, either.  All this to say that even if we did have some data regarding RHD, LHD, automatic, or standard shift how accurate would it be anyway?  I think they got quite a bit wrong in the numbers game, but they could get away with it. 

All these years later I can't imagine any logical reason why Mercedes would want to withhold such insignificant (to them) bits of information.  The aforementioned alludes to the possibility of them not having ever noted which ones were RHD, LHD, automatic, or standard shift.  I feel that every angle we approach this subject matter from is a plausible approach.....it's anybody's guess! 

[MikeSimon]

All very valid points, Aaron, especially the one where we will never know. However... Consider that Mercedes can reproduce a data card based solely on the VIN number. So there must be information stored away somewhere. And...just for warranty reasons, MB at the time must have had all the little details of a specific car recorded. Whether they kept it accessible, remains the question.

[114015]

However... Consider that Mercedes can reproduce a data card based solely on the VIN number. So there must be information stored away somewhere.

Oh no-no, Michael, no...,

The Mercedes-Benz  Archive kept one real paper copy of one of the multiple original datacards.
Imagine this: each car came with 2 or 3 or four or five detacards (it depends..., we still have to determine this...; I know only of ONE Gentleman, who has received four (mostly different) copies of these original datacards, and that is Ralph);
most of these were delivered with the car (one with keycodes, one without, one pink one ...)
and just one copy was left at the factory. Later on these were "destroyed" after first being copied/archived on microfiches...

Today, if we request our datacard, we are getting of a copy/reprint of the single one that is left in the factory archives (in form of microfiches or today digitally) ...

... So there must be information stored away somewhere.

Yes, on the datacard, on the (poor) copy that we all get for 150.00 €€/200.00$$...
that is ...

Keep smiling,

Achim
(datacardknowledgeaficionado)

[RobSirg]

MB has the VIN's...….. therefore MB has all the information.

They just need that information loaded into a simple spreadsheet and it can all be calculated and shared at the click of a button. They can use Hi-Tech means and scan it in, or go low tech and manually enter each VIN into a spreadsheet (assuming it is not already in).
There are low cost countries where MB has Operations and sells a lot of cars (I mean a lot!) where it could be manually loaded in for a few thousand dollars (certainly less than $10K). A lot of money for some....for MB?.... maybe not.

I don't believe it is a financial matter....it certainly isn't because they don't have the information ……..so I'm guessing that they just couldn't be .......

[getsmart]

MB has the VIN's...….. therefore MB has all the information.

They just need that information loaded into a simple spreadsheet and it can all be calculated and shared at the click of a button. They can use Hi-Tech means and scan it in, or go low tech and manually enter each VIN into a spreadsheet (assuming it is not already in).
There are low cost countries where MB has Operations and sells a lot of cars (I mean a lot!) where it could be manually loaded in for a few thousand dollars (certainly less than $10K). A lot of money for some....for MB?.... maybe not.

I don't believe it is a financial matter....it certainly isn't because they don't have the information ……..so I'm guessing that they just couldn't be .......

BOTHERED