Author Topic: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc  (Read 3802 times)

prefervintage

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LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« on: April 28, 2020, 02:51:48 »
Hi...I must have missed it, but when I searched for LEDs on this site I came up with some great references here to headlight replacements, and for the directionals, good info on a relay change to get the flash rate right...but I did not see anything for LEDs for the gauges...has anyone done this? One website offers a choice of colors...I wonder how a pagoda dash would look at night in blue, green, or red! here is the link...
https://www.superbrightleds.com/vehicle/1970-280sl-vehicle-led-lights?model=88&year=1970

GM

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 03:11:51 »
I'm in the middle of doing it now. Here's the latest update post from last year that follows on the original work by 66andBlue from 2013 -
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28874.msg209111#msg209111
Gary
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WRe

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 06:06:46 »
Hi,
attached a summary, sorry in German.
...WRe

yves

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 07:53:35 »
I have recently replaced all bulbs with leds but have not yet tried the warning lights ….. i Wonder if i must add the 82 ohms resistor as said in the forum…? does some one has tested that without the resistor?
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yves

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2020, 10:38:02 »
well i have tested without resistor and it works ... what have i missed ? do my leds will fry?
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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 11:15:55 »
Hi Yves,
did you test if your alternator loads your battery because it needs at least 2W (legacy bulb or LED with resistor) for excitation?
...WRe

clunker

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2020, 22:26:46 »
Yves, you need to add the resistor in order for the lamp circuit to net carry the load necessary to validate the charging system working. PM me if you have any issues.
Charles
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GM

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2020, 04:21:23 »
For the record, Charles (clunker) has been a huge help to me in making the LED transition.
Gary
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yves

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2020, 19:42:51 »
I have tested the alternator . i have 14 v  when the engine is on .
I don't understand ( sorry) the necessity of fitting a resistor  on the leds wiring ?
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prefervintage

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2020, 02:09:34 »
I think I might be able to help explain this. In the most basic form, we generate electricity either by placing a conductor through a magnetic field, or by having a magnetic field pass by a conductor. In a car generator, there is a rotating shaft with windings on it we call an armature. Around this is a stationary magnetic field created by applying power to windings wrapped around soft iron on something we call a stator. As the armature turns inside the stators magnetic field, we induce current flow, and produce electricity. This electricity is carried out of the stator by a series of contact on the end of the armature shaft that rub against carbon brushes. To make sure there is always a steady magnetic field for the windings in the armature to pass through, a group of windings is switched on in sequence depending on the angular position of the armature. This is accomplished using a segmented series of contacts called a commutator. The commutator always makes sure the electricity produced is positive and direct. The regulator is designed to vary the amount of electricity into the stator, which in turn controls the strength of the magnetic field, and so the amount of voltage produced at the commutator….a closed loop control system.

The generator is not very efficient because the brushes don’t make perfect contact, and are always being connected and disconnected in rapid succession. Anyone who has looked at an electric drill motor in operation has seen the shower of sparks being produced at the commutator to know that some of that power is being wasted in the form of heat, not to mention broadcasting radio noise. Brushes also wear down because of the discontinuity in the commutator surface. In addition, there is a physical limit to how fine the angular switching of the armature windings – the brushes can be made only so thin before they break or are limited in current flow. So another approach was needed. When Bell labs developed the semiconductor in the late fifties, diodes and transistors, a means was now possible to make a more compact, yet more efficient, electricity generating device. The alternator, so named because it is actually producing an alternating or polyphase current just like the AC in a home, is really a 3-phase generator. The output is derived not with a segmented commutator, but smooth slip rings. This mitigates wear (and sparks hence heat hence losses), and produces more power ever 120 degrees than a generator. The electric field around this is controlled by the regulator. The output of the three phases is channeled through diodes, which only allow current to flow in one direction. As the output rises above or below ground, the connection of the diodes always results in positive current flowing to yield direct current, albeit with some ripple. Now for the idiot or charging light. For a light to work, obviously current from flow through the bulb or light emitting diode, back to a battery. An incandescent light or old style light bulb is polarity insensitive. A diode on the other hand must have a positive connection connected to the anode, and the output, or cathode, connected to the battery or power supply negative or ground. (I always envision the diode symbol anode as a big ‘A’, which makes it easy to know which side to connect to the positive). Now what if the diode or bulb has positive connected to both sides? No current flows, and so no light lights. We call this zero voltage drop. This is the basis of a charging system warning or idiot light. When you switch on the ignition, 12 volts is fed through the light and to the alternator field windings. When the engine starts and the rotation of the alternator gets up to speed and power is being produced, some of that power is fed back to the filed winding, in effect, creating the same potential on both sides of the bulb, so without a voltage drop, no light glows. In fact, for some cars, if that bulb is bad, the alternator won’t work. When I was young and foolish, or more foolish, I used to check an alternator by pulling off the battery positive terminal while the engine was running…if the car stayed running, the alternator was good because if it wasn’t putting out, there would be no power back to the filed to generate electricity to keep the car going. Now to the question of our LED replacement for the charging light in our SLs. An incandescent light has more resistance than an LED, and needs some resistance to heat up and glow. An LED is current sensitive and can burn out, requiring only about 20 milliamps forward biased for operation, and only about 5 milliamps for a high efficiency LED. So adding a resistor in series will be required to protect the LED and have a roughly equivalent load to the field circuit, depending on what else is connected to it. I would not connect an LED to the charging circuit without a series resistor. To be sure how best to do this, I’d like to see a schematic of the W113 charging system. I assume there is one somewhere on the forum? If 82 ohms works, I would suggest hooking an ammeter is series with the LED and this resistor and measure the current when the ignition is on but the engine not running…the LED should be on…if you are below approximately 30 mils, I think you’re good.





prefervintage

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2020, 02:21:22 »
After I posted, I wondered what the resistance is of the original bulb...can someone please measure that? There has to be enough current flowing to the alternator from the ignition switch tjrough a light to get a sufficient filed to kick off the output. Too large a resistor to protect the LED may result in the alternator not generating.

yves

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2020, 07:01:43 »
Thank you for your long and complete answer. (I have to say that i must read your speech twice or more …. Because of my poor English vocabulary, but it's a good training  ;) )
Anyway below you have the resistance measure of a 2Watts bulb :
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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2020, 07:04:37 »
.. There has to be enough current flowing to the alternator from the ignition switch through a light to get a sufficient field to kick off the output...

Hi,
this is the key information to start loading the battery from engine start and idling. Otherwise loading will happen during higher revs only.
To calculate the resistance of your bulbs use Ohm's law: R=U2/P.
If the light is on and current is 11.8 - 14.6V and bulb has 2W: R = 69.6 to 106.6 Ohm
...WRe
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 07:53:42 by WRe »

yves

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2020, 07:25:17 »
It's a rainy 1 of MAY today …. so i'll try to put the resistor on the plug . BTW where can i have a colored wiring schema to be certain to connect the resistor at the right pin ?
I saw on the manual the pic of the plug with the location for the resistance but i must be sure about the pins to connect  :-\
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Peter van Es

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2020, 07:52:33 »
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2020, 07:57:05 »
... or here
...WRe

yves

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2020, 07:57:40 »
Thank's Peter and Wre ;)
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prefervintage

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2020, 11:44:35 »
Hi Yves...thanks for your post...believe me, my French needs work...I'm hoping this Covid thing will be over soon so we can travel again...I hear Paris is empty, read about Venice canals being deserted, Germany is also not the same...but I digress...on the LED stuff...I've come to the conclusion that replacing all bulbs except the alternator light is probably the best compromise. Ohms law being E=IR, and so I=E/R, which if we use the 82 ohm resistor and have a full 12 volts applied from the ignition switch, would yield 0.146 amps, too much for an LED, and low for a field current. Plus, if we look at the heat the resistor would generate, power is I^2R, which would be (0.146)^2 * 82 or 1.74 watts, so, hot...an incandescent lamp is a power resistor anyway, so why replace it in the first place? (Calculation not exact since as a bulb heats up, the resistance goes up, but close enough). You could come up with a shunt and LED, but again, one would have to play with values for a given alternator to get it right. An opamp circuit (comparator circuit) could be made to look at the voltage across a load resistor in place of a filament bulb which drives an LED indicator...but...why all the complication? As an engineer, I drive older cars because I want the simplicity i.e., read reliability, of earlier designs. I think LED for headlights, taillights, and all dash lights are great, but for the alternator, personally, I'm leaving a filament bulb. I'd hate to be out some night and an LED pop and my alternator stops putting out, and I have to fiddle in the dark on the side of the road wiring a patch connection to the alternator to get field excitation going again....then have to tear apart my dash the following day to replace the LED. Which reminds me...about the reliability of our SL cars...out of all of mine, my Pagoda is the most reliable. When my late model cars have computer glitches, throw codes, go into limp mode, you name it (and I start swearing left and right), I can always get into my old SL and it always starts and goes, winter, summer, or Fall...these cars are great...and the fuel injection is bulletproof...what a great car...and what a great forum here...its terrific the way all of you help each other keep the W113 model going strong!!

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2020, 12:44:42 »
Well…… after examination of the manual…..!   i Don't know specifically  where i must connect the 83 ohms resistor. The manual explain for the warning alternator light and the low  fuel light
 About the  hazard lights , If i have not misunderstood , i have to connect the resistor in serie on the wire of one green bulb of the central cluster …
the connection will be fitted between two pins of the central cluster plug.
So my question is :  what pins ?

 (PS: i agree completely with you Prefervintage… )
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 12:48:55 by yves »
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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2020, 14:23:47 »
I am ready to connect the resistor after a Bench work about  calculating résistors and soldering …. 
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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2020, 16:46:30 »
Yves - See the bottom post photo in this thread - it shows where to connect the resistor
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28874.msg209111#msg209111
Gary
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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2020, 17:14:31 »
Hi,
the resistor for the LED alternator indicator light goes between cable blue and blue/red, in your picture between 1 and 3.
...WRe

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2020, 17:42:46 »
The tech manual under https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/InstrumentLights has a section on the determining the required resistor (82ohm) to be connected in parallel.

I corresponded with Yves in PM but I post my response here if it helps clarify:

The charging lamp/door open lamp circuit requires a resistor to ensure the correct load if the bulb replaced with an LED. Note however, that resistor must be connected in PARALLEL (not series): the reason is that the new LED bulb has too high a resistance (600ohm), and so we connect a suitable resistor (82ohm) routed "around it"so that the overall resistance of the circuit is '"reduced" back to the correct level (72 ohm) - if this resistor was connected in series it would only "add" to the too-high resistance (600+82 = 682ohm).

For the green bulbs (indicator) in the central cluster no resistor is required.

[ Separate from those dashboard green bulbs, for the EXTERNAL indicator lamps (at each corner of the car) changing those to LEDs impacts a different circuit set, and another set of issues arises. This is also related to the expected resistance of the circuits, but in that case relates to both the relay/solenoid that controls the turn signals, and the separate relay/solenoid that controls the hazard flasher (even though it uses same actual lamps). This has been discussed elsewhere. ]

So, in summary:
- for the red bulb you correctly identified, if changed to LED then connect (in PARALLEL) the 82ohm resistor to that lamp circuit,
  as per the tech manual diagram https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/InstrumentLights

- the green indicator/turn signal lamps in central cluster can be directly replaced with LEDs with no other changes required;

- the hazard/turn signal issue arises only if you change the EXTERNAL turn bulbs with LEDs and is addressed separately.

--Charles
Charles
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yves

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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2020, 18:20:58 »
Thank's everyone …. here is the job:

The more difficult task was to maintain the wires and pin without any movement when soldering ….!
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Re: LEDs for Tach & Speedometer, etc
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2020, 18:23:23 »
and Don't forget…. :o
Your head protection ….
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