Spark plugs/cables and 123ignition - final conclusions?

[Berggreen]

Dear All

I have seen that throughout the last 10-12 or so years, the question about spark plugs and the 123ignition has been debated several times in the forum. But reading those earlier threads, there does not seem to have been any final conclusions drawn and recommendations issued concerning the combined use of a 123ignition and then which particular spark plug type (and cables) is best.

It does seem like most prefer NGK non-resistor plugs these days, due to the declining quality of the BOSCH non-resistor plugs, being produced in India/Russia etc..

I also see that for a standard ignition system, the preferred plug seems to be the "hotter" NGK BP5ES, although the equivalent standard plug from NGK would be a BP7ES. But probably, as most of us these days prefer less fast high-speed highway driving, and more slower speed stop-and-go driving in our Pagodas, a "hotter" plug like the BP5ES seems like the best compromise. Furthermore, a more worn engine later in its life, would probably also benefit from a "hotter" spark plug like the BP5ES.

HOWEVER, can we reach the same (or a different) conclusions, when many of us now have converted to an electronic 123ignition in our cars? Is the NGK BP5ES still the preferred plug, or should we choose a different spark plug? In other words, does the 123ignition deliver a stronger or a weaker spark compared to the standard BOSCH distributor, which would make us select a different plug? 

123ignition is selling the BP7ES for the Pagoda in their online shop. But I guess this is just by looking into the standard spark plug table from NGK (?).

Similarly, we could also talk about the spark plug cables. I can find on the 123ignition homepage, that they recommend carbon core cables to be used with the 123ignition together with the red BOSCH coil. But is this what most people install in their Pagodas with 123ignitions and what are the experiences, or do we deviate from this? (I know carbon cored cables are not recommended, when using the standard BOSCH distributors).

It would be great, if we could nail these questions one time for all in this thread, so that we can set this straight, and set some general recommendations for the choice of spark plugs and cables, when using the 123ignitions in our cars.

I look forward to see your comments.

Best wishes,

Christian 

[Pawel66]

I would like to support Berggreen request. I think this kind of wrap up would be very useful.

I am happy to collect answers and fill in tables as enclosed - they can also be modified if what I proposed does not make sense. We could do it for 113 042, 113 043 and 113 044.

I understand our experts here may not have share of time and share of mind for this kind of wrap ups - happy to help there in pulling results of Berggreen request together.

[Berggreen]

I would like to support Berggreen request. I think this kind of wrap up would be very useful.

I am happy to collect answers and fill in tables as enclosed - they can also be modified if what I proposed does not make sense. We could do it for 113 042, 113 043 and 113 044.

I understand our experts here may not have share of time and share of mind for this kind of wrap ups - happy to help there in pulling results of Berggreen request together.

Thanks Pawel, that is a GREAT initiative with the pdf-document!! 

I hope a lot of people will share their experiences, so that we can come to a common understanding and conclusions what is best for our cars, when using the 123ignition.

Cheers,

Christian

[Paul & Dolly]

 Hi Pawel, Christian

Great initiative on an easily confusing subject, not helped by Bosch and NGK  using "recipricals" of their Numbering systems !
Maybe good to include what setting people are using on their 123, I think 8 is the usual setting for "European" cars.
I changed from Bosch to NGK(BP7ES) to NGK (BP5ES) over the years, and then fitted a 123 last year and have remained with the BP5ES.
Look forward to the PDF

Keep well

Paul

[Pawel66]

Thank you Paul, attaching Draft v1.

I have also included what I could insert myself (but it is still a subject for corrections!!!).

Maybe easier to start the discussion and encourage input form all of our Gurus.

[Berggreen]

Thank you Paul, attaching Draft v1.

Thanks for updating with Paul's input.

Programs on the 123ignition, which is not the core topic, but is an important part of the picture, when a 123ignition is installed:

1) For the Euro cars, program 8 will work, if the original European throttle body, sourcing vacuum from below the throttle body, is intact, or have been installed as a Euro-conversion of a US car.

2) In terms of the US configuration cars, then for the standard 123ignition, program E would be right, given that all the vacuum shut-off gears and relays are still working correctly (though they rarely are). I think Mike uploaded some US curves for the programmable 123ignition in another thread.

Cheers,

Christian

[Pawel66]

Updated draft enclosed.

[Berggreen]

I have also included what I could insert myself (but it is still a subject for corrections!!!).

Maybe easier to start the discussion and encourage input form all of our Gurus.

In terms of coil and resistor, then as far as I know and have installed on my car, the 123ignition requires a minimum of 0.9 Ohm pre-resistor installed together with the red coil. Or is this what you actually mean in the table?

In terms of the lead/cable type, then I saw on the 123ignition homepage that they recommend using carbon cored cables. I suspect the reason being that the interference on the electronics in the 123ignition is less with carbon cored cables, compared to copper ones. But this is just my guess and interpretation.

I am personally using some blue cables from a local car part chain in Scandinavia called BILTEMA, because these cables came highly recommended to me by several people, and many high-performance tuners here are also using them: https://www.biltema.dk/bil---mc/bilreservedele/tandings-og-gloderorsystem/tandkabelsat/stojdampede-tandingskabler-2000017998

But I actually do not know which core they have. So I have written to the costumer support to find out. Up to now, they just sent me the resistance specs on the cables which are:

(57-301), 40cm: 2,2 kΩ
(57-302), 50cm: 2,75 kΩ
(57-303), 60cm: 3,3 kΩ
(57-307), 70cm: 3,85 kΩ
(57-305), 80cm: 4,4 kΩ
(57-308), 100cm: 5,5 kΩ

and as resistance is increasing significantly with length, I assume they could very well be carbon core cables. Also, in average they have more resistance than what you currently have in the table. But these cables may not be right either - just what I am currently using. Let's hear what others use.

Cheers,

Christian

[Pawel66]

I had 0.9 resistance in mind, but to make sure I provide correct information I went to 123 website to check and they now say 1ohm, so I put 1 ohm there.

Would you like me to change in the table to carbon core leads? I would wait for what others will say...

When I was checking my copper core cables for resistance, they had practically zero, so yours must be something else than copper.

I suggest we focus on spark type recommendations first not to lose the main question from sight...

[mbzse]

.../...I look forward to see your comments.

Use copper core ignition cables only
Like from Bosch

[Pawel66]

Hans, thank you!

I remember you are using BP6ES for moderate climate (I guess) for regular driving. Do I remember correct?

Some more pdf updates included, I keep it v1 for now.

[Berggreen]

I had 0.9 resistance in mind, but to make sure I provide correct information I went to 123 website to check and they now say 1ohm, so I put 1 ohm there.

Would you like me to change in the table to carbon core leads? I would wait for what others will say...

When I was checking my copper core cables for resistance, they had practically zero, so yours must be something else than copper.

I suggest we focus on spark type recommendations first not to lose the main question from sight...

Fully agree....maybe a TBC next to the cable input details could be the compromise, until we sort this out.

Because I think there is something hidden here between the original standard BOSCH ignition system and then the 123ignition. Reading up on spark plug cables online, it says that solid core cables like copper cables have almost no resistance but very poor insulation properties: Quote: "...solid core offers very little EMI/RFI suppression, so they’re not suited for electronic ignition systems or vehicles with sensitive communications equipment."

So definately for the standard original BOSCH system, the solid copper core cables are the right ones, but I am not so sure this is the case for the electronic 123ignition.

[Pawel66]

Done it TBC on leads for now, as you wished.

I think they mean different communication systems in modern cars and different spark generation systems. The system in our cars, despite it is electronic with 123, it is a simple "to the bone" system with one coil where the electronics are just helping to get the spark in the proper moment and eliminate mechanical issues. There are no EMUs or other management modules to interfere with their communications...

[Berggreen]

Done it TBC on leads for now, as you wished.

I think they mean different communication systems in modern cars and different spark generation systems. The system in our cars, despite it is electronic with 123, it is a simple "to the bone" system with one coil where the electronics are just helping to get the spark in the proper moment and eliminate mechanical issues. There are no EMUs or other management modules to interfere with their communications...

Yes maybe they do, but I do indeed think there is a small EMU hidden in the 123ignition. Otherwise, it would not be able to store 16 different maps for the standard version, and have a programmable unit for the USB and Bluetooth versions of the 123ignition. I assume this is why 123ignition is also recommending carbon cored spark plug cables to be used to avoid interference with electrical noise from solid cored copper cables. Then how much of an effect it actually has in practical use, between copper and carbon cables is then the big question.

The reason why I switched to the blue cables from BILTEMA was because the original BOSCH cables, it had before, gave a much too weak spark. Switching to the blue cables fixed that problem back then, and I did not think more about it before now, when I got in doubt which spark plug to use with the 123ignition.

[Pawel66]

I see, that could be, I am not educated in this enough to determine that.

On heat range - similarly, I am not sure if 123 is influencing the heat range choice significantly here, let's see.

My issue regarding heat range was, assuming regular, not sport driving:

- I was in Bosch W7DC camp (that is the catalogue recommendation I guess), which is equivalent of NGK BP7ES or close to it BP6ES
- then in some of the discussions I am hearing half of the world are using NGK BP5ES, which is equivalent of Bosch W9DC - a hotter plug, less heat dispersing. This would make sense in a car that has tendency to run rich (which a lot of them do) as it is accommodating self cleaning better in regular driving. But then if your spark plugs are light grey, just a touch of tan - it is correct/slightly lean condition - I probably should stay in W7DC/BP7ES area.

Just would be grateful to hear about this.

As I have 123 I would also be curious how does this modify spark plug choice.

[Berggreen]

On heat range - similarly, I am not sure if 123 is influencing the heat range choice significantly here, let's see.

My issue regarding heat range was, assuming regular, not sport driving:

- I was in Bosch W7DC camp (that is the catalogue recommendation I guess), which is equivalent of NGK BP7ES or close to it BP6ES
- then in some of the discussions I am hearing half of the world are using NGK BP5ES, which is equivalent of Bosch W9DC - a hotter plug, less heat dispersing. This would make sense in a car that has tendency to run rich (which a lot of them do) as it is accommodating self cleaning better in regular driving. But then if your spark plugs are light grey, just a touch of tan - it is correct/slightly lean condition - I probably should stay in W7DC/BP7ES area.

Just would be grateful to hear about this.

As I have 123 I would also be curious how does this modify spark plug choice.

I actually also currently have the standard plugs installed in both my 280SL's, though those being NGK BP7ES.

However, on my green 280SL automatic, which always has had a tendency to have small mis-fires in idle (little un-stable idle), but otherwise runs great at high revs, I do sense that especially after slower stop-go driving in town, that the mis-fires get worse. Then after some faster driving on the high-way they are back to normal again.

So this does in fact support that the ability of the BP7ES plugs seems like they are not very good at self-cleaning, when driving in town at low speeds, and I could maybe benefit from switching to the BP5ES plugs?

In your case, if you do not experience any rough idle or misfires at idle, I would stay with the standard plugs.

[Pawel66]

I am not sure - that is why I would see what the experts say to determine this heat rate choice. I have recently installed BP5ES to see the spark plags colour, but have not driven the car yet. But I suppose it is not a goo route for me, having the car across rpms fairly lean.

As for your complaint - I had a very similar symptoms. A little rough idle and occasional misfires while standing in the traffic. The longer I was standing, the worse it got. I figured I had too rich idle. I thought if I had too rich idle, the spark plugs will get more and more sooth and idle is worsening as the car is standing and misfires happen more and more often. It was indeed too rich mixture on idle. To check (I did not have CO meter at hat time) I let the car idle for 5-10 minutes when it was hot then I removed and checked the spark plugs - all black and lots of black residue. I confirmed with split linkage, re-adjusted idle mixture and the symptoms have gone.

But that was just my experience.

I think hotter plugs might help in this case, but the primary root cause and fix was the idle mixture, not cold spark plugs.

Anyway - you probably do not have too much traffic on weekends to Toldboden, so you should be ok .

[Pawel66]

Perhaps I need to renew our kind request here: could you please provide view on spark plugs heat range:

1. Is there a difference when you have original distributor or 123 ignition? What would be the heat ranges?
2. Do the heat-range depend on climate - moderate or warm?
3. It does depend on driving style/purpose - would would be your recommendation for the sport/high rev/freeway vs. cruising driving?

[Pawel66]

Dear Experts,

I have reviewed quite a few posts and input what I found into the attached.

Can you please verify the information on the first page of the pdf and tell me where to correct it? Please.

[awolff280sl]

I'm no expert, but on the 1st page, under Remarks, I think there is an error regarding the curves.
Curve selection is based upon original distributor, not Euro vs. US.
Curve 8 is indicated for distributors BOSCH 0 231 116 051,  0 231 185 009
Curve E is indicated for distributors BOSCH 0 231 116 061, 0 231 116 062, 0 231 116 066

As per Curve table data at https://123ignitionusa.com/mercedes-with-6-cyl-engines-63-and-up-merc-6-r-v-will-not-fit-c-models/

[Pawel66]

Thank you!

Amended, v3 enclosed.

[Benz Dr.]

I don't know if I'd call myself an expert but here goes:

On a standard ignition system, less resistance is better. The standard black coil is 13 KV and the ballast resistor is .9 ohms with NGK  BP7ES plugs and 1 ohm spark plug ends. 8 degrees BTDC at idle for early distributors and 38 degrees BTDC full advance. This is all standard specs.

I changed those specs up a bit when I added the red 26KV coil. That requires a 1.8 ohm ballast resistor because the voltage is doubled coming from the coil. Spark plug ends are still 1 ohm but I moved up to the hotter BP5ES plugs which heat up more quickly and have less tendency to foul out. Spark plug wires are all solid metal core with no resistors at the distributor cap. I want all the juice that the coil can make going directly to the spark plugs. The coil wire should also be a solid metal core type with no resistors. Ignition timing would remain the same. You can take this info to the bank.

I'm not as familiar with the 123 system but there's a whole bunch of conflicting info that makes little sense to me. If it's electronic, why do you need a ballast resistor, and why .9 ohms? Secondly, why use carbon core wires? You only have 26 KV and in my mind the carbon core wires would knock the voltage down to less than what the 13 KV coil provided. Later model MB engines with electronic distributors continued to use metal core wires well into the 80's and possibly beyond that. Why put asystem on that you have to dampen the spark? You might as well stick to the standard system.   

[mrfatboy]

Several people I know have 123 systems.  They have all bypassed the ballast resistor.

[Pawel66]

Benz Dr.

I don't know if I'd call myself an expert but here goes:

Let then us be judges of that  .

I think I am within your recommendations, except I need to add the points from the second passage: black coil + 0.9ohm resistor +remark that it may be better without a resistor.

Thank you very much for your kind attention and adivse!

Enclosed amended v4.