Hello, I'm new

[ZwoachtzigSL]

Hello pagoda enthusiast.

I am new here in your forum.
My name is Detlef Kupfer and
I live in Bad Homburg, Germany
(near by Frankfurt Main).

I have bought my pagoda last year
in USA from a private seller
(280 SL, year of construction 1970,
automatik transmission).

I know many pagoda owners here in
Germany. Unfortunately, many of
them don't think much to buy a
pagoda in the USA. They say: Your
Pagodas gets almost already
malicious always claimed, almost
all pagodas from the USA are rusty
and could hold together only with
Prestolit.

But up till now I am quite content.

Because in the USA the choice is much
bigger, have I found a pagoda, which
in color looks beautiful (dark-red),
technically was so far all right and
I could pay which.

My question is: Why is the image of
US-Pagodas here in Germany so bad?

What do you mean?

Detlef

Stern-Garage

[Cees Klumper]

Herzlich wilkommen hier Detlef!

Unfortunately I do not know that many German Pagoda enthusiasts, but from my personal experience the level of attention and care given by US owners does not differ from that here in Europe. Also I think anyone familiar with this forum cannot say that US owners take things more lightly than owners from Europe, or from anywhere else for that matter.

What MAY account for this alleged poor reputation is that certain dealers/importers from Europe, out to make some easy money, may have imported the lesser-cared for examples from the US which they have bought really cheap, then selling them to unsuspecting customers at the relatively high prices Pagodas in Europe (and especially in Germany) command, and representing those cars more favorably than justified. But this then is more a reflection on the trading practices of these particular dealers, rather than saying anything about the average care given in the US.

I have seen some really beautiful examples of restored Pagodas in the US, like Michael Salemi's and Tom Sargeant's, and I don't think any Pagoda could wish for a more attentive owner than those two!

P.s. are you going to the Techno Classica?

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Douglas]

Detlef,

Welcome to the site and to a very active group of enthusiast owners from all over the world.

I've heard that European buyers are hesitant to buy US cars, but I always assumed it was because of the inherent complications of purchasing a car long-distance. Too many issues involve blind trust.

I also always assumed there was some preference for the slightly more powerful Euro motor (and perhaps a dislike of the US-spec features like bumper guards, sidemarket lights, etc.)

Nonetheless, I suspect recently favorable currency exchange rates have helped persuade many European buyers to consider their options in the US.

As an American, I must add that it's particularly funny to hear the prejudice against US Pagodas from Germany because many American owners have the exact same feelings about Euro SLs!

Of course, the people truly in the know realize that each prospect must be carefully examined regardless of country of origin.

One last thought to keep in mind -- many cars exported to foreign markets (either from the US to Europe or vice versa) are sent over by speculators. In other words, the exporter is in it to make money, pure and simple. They are, therefore, motivated to buy as low as possible and sell as high as possible. Given this, the temptation to misrepresent a bad car as a good one is enormous.

I've owned examples of both Euro and US Pagodas and know that they're both wonderful cars.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[ZwoachtzigSL]

Thanks for your fast answers. I share quite exactly your opinion.

Otherwise I completely wouldn't have bought any pagoda for me in the USA certainly. I have had a look at a whole amount of pagodas from the USA on the Internet before.

Compliment. One cannot think in Germany so much beautiful and good restored pagodas as in the case of you.

If one finds a very good pagoda in Germany, then this one costs between 40,000 to 60,000 euros. The little pagoda market is checked skillfully by a handful's dealers in Germany.

The many fans who would like to buy a pagoda for itself are the stupid ones.

Detlef


Stern-Garage

[Dick M]

Hi Detlef..
Welcome to the W113 Pagoda SL Group..

Visiting this web site is one way for people to undertstand just how much most of us enthusiast care about our Pagodas.  

Encourage your other W113 owner friends to visit and participate in our discussions. Also have them look at our video:  www.xs4all.nl/~vanes/Pagoda/pagoda_loc_net_302.wmv


Dick M
1970 280SL

[Douglas]

One more thought to add: I think it's fair to say that the quality of restoration work in the US is the highest in the world. American restorers  have taken automobile restoration to ridiculous heights. Compare a restored car from the Daimler Classic Center to a Paul Russell or Hjeltness restoration and the difference will be obvious.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[Tom230sl]

Typical German Nationalism. Got to think these cars are equally subject to rust in the "fatherland" as they are here (if not less). Possible that they are crying "sour grapes" over the competition (as in jealous). I bet most people in the US wouldn't give that statement much credence/thought!

[Ben]

quote:Compare a restored car from the Daimler Classic Center to a Paul Russell or Hjeltness restoration and the difference will be obvious.

Hey Doug, are you saying that the factory job isn't as good ??

Anyway I think the fact that the US in general has been more affluent over the last 60 years and its love for old cars during this period has meant there is a much larger industry, full of skilled craftsmen, than there is in Europe, and also I feel that the cost of labour in Europe has been traditionally higher, which can sometimes lead to lower performance !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[France]

Hi Guys,

We have classics (MBs and Jags) in the US (Florida) and in Alsace, a point of France which stabs into the side of Germany at Karlsruhe. After driving the 500SL on the roadways this snowy winter I can attest to the amount of salt used in Germany--Tom's right--get out the Waxoyl!  For that reason I would rather have even a Florida Pagoda than anything from around here.  

Also as Ben says, the cost of labour is crazy in Germany.  We are lucky to take all our cars to a little garage a few doors down in our French village, where a native Alsatian does wonderful work--the only way we can indulge in so many oldies. Detlef, you did what any thinking person would do. You can afford a lot of restoration when you start with a reasonably sound $15K car and have good help.

There probably is an element of hurt pride too--it's hard to see furriners take your stuff and make it better when you can't afford to. IMHO Germany is headed for some very, very hard times...

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL

[Douglas]

There was an interesting article in the Wall St Journal a couple of years back about American casino tycoon William Harrah and how he competed with another great car collector in his day and ended up singlehandedly elevating the standards for car restoration worldwide. He basically went berserk in restoring cars in his collection, down to every last screw. He died in the late 70s and, apparently, this was a new level of fanaticism in cars at the time.

I think there's a lot of great restoration work being done all around the world, particularly in the area of metal work and fabricating things like one-off body panels. It's an old world craft, without a doubt.

My point was that the greatest, most detailed, most anal-retentive restorations are still coming out of American shops today. Mind you, those restorations are being performed on behalf of clients all over the world, so the market is certainly an international one.

I do think it's worth pointing out that "German nationalism" is what made these cars possible in the first place. All you have to do is to take a look at a typical American car from the same period and it's obvious that it took a lot of presence of mind to make a Pagoda SL. It was unique in its day and still is today.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[Ben]

Just think how hard it would be to get all the little details perfect on a 113 without the internet, and this site in particular ! :O

It must have led to diverse innaccuracies 30 odd years ago when the earliest of these cars were starting to require attention !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[ZwoachtzigSL]

Hello Cees.

At first, please excuse my bad English. An interesting Discussion has developed here.

This is by the way exactly my opinion, that you restore in America better and more honestly like here in Germany.

Is there by the way a number, as many pagodas are allowed in the USA today certainly (type continuance)?

I would like to visite the Techno Classica in Essen. But I have promised my wife to drive with her a couple of days to the North Sea.
Unfortunately still without pagoda.

However, I am in Holland 3-4 times per annum. Perhaps I can visit you in Amsterdam.

Yes my pagoda. It got's complete, new booms and floor-metals in winter (original MB-Parts). Now it is in the workshop and the engine, the fuel-injection and a couple of things more are made fit.

As incurable Nostalgiker I am already really ill and I can expect it hardly more, to drive this most wonderful car of the world.


Detlef

Stern-Garage

[n/a]

I received a lot of calls from Germany when I had my 65 230sl listed.  The car was purchased by a German and is now back in Germany.

[JamesL]

Detlef

Perhaps you car will be ready for the Pagoda Rally in Landshut in August?

If it is, see you there! My car has always been in the UK and so comparison of cars will be interesting. Your steering wheel will, of course, be on the wrong side

[Cees Klumper]

Hello Detlef. You caused a great and interesting discussion.
Yes of course I would like to meet up anytime you are in Holland, just let me know when you come next time and we can have a drive around.

By the way can you please explain what you mean with your question "Is there by the way a number, as many pagodas are allowed in the USA today certainly (type continuance)?"

And your English is much better than my German - "see you" at www.pagodentreff.de anyway!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[ZwoachtzigSL]

Hello Cees, hello Tosh.

I wanted to know how many pagodas there are in the USA today certainly?

And Tosh, of course I come to Landshut.

By the way, right-hand drive has the advantage:

They are very rare in Bavaria. If you come with 10 beers in a police control, the one who sits on the left car-side is probably checked by the stupid bavarian police.

Hahaha, Detlef

For the date in Landshut you can contact me under E-Mail too:

buero.kupfer@t-online.de


Stern-Garage

[glennard]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

There was an interesting article in the Wall St Journal a couple of years back about American casino tycoon William Harrah and how he competed with another great car collector in his day and ended up singlehandedly elevating the standards for car restoration worldwide. He basically went berserk in restoring cars in his collection, down to every last screw. He died in the late 70s and, apparently, this was a new level of fanaticism in cars at the time.


Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

Just visited Harrah's museum in Reno, NV.  He did a fabulous job and is owed alot. It well presented and worth a couple of hours.

[France]

OH, memories... I had one of Harrah's cars.  My ex and his partner rendered legal help in one of Harrah's disputes, and they were paid with a pair of Jags.  My ex took the 63 MKII 3.8 (the other was a roadster) in the partnership dissolution.  I got her in our subsequent settlement.  By the time she got to me, she was in reduced circumstances but still lovely.  She was white with Connolly leather red interior and wire wheels.  Just caught her stride at 100 mph.  Left me in the middle of nowhere between SF and Los Gatos on Christmas night with two flat tyres.  I sold her in 1988, sigh...she would have taken just too much of a struggling career girl's income to keep up.  [Icon weeping big tears!!!]

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL

[Douglas]

Trice,

You must share some pix from your garage. We are all curious to see your Pagoda's stablemates.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[France]

Detlef, be careful of those Bayern police--they stop me every time I cross the AU/DE border with the 500; they are looking for contraband, and they can be very very stupid indeed.

Douglas, you would probably not be very impressed by what's in the garage right now.  A Detomaso, an old Vette, a 500SL, a GT40, and an XJS (do you sense a big-engine fetish?).  In Sarasota, my beloved 280SL and a half-restored but fully drivable e-type.  But we are gaining impetus to acquire something interesting... I would give them all up for Carling, but my other half would not agree!  

I am always in awe of you guys on this site, and not happy that there seem to be no women participants.  I have always loved (mostly European) cars, although I did not learn to drive until I was 24... :evil:  too busy travelling and studying.

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL

[gugel]

quote:Originally posted by ZwoachtzigSL

By the way, right-hand drive has the advantage:

They are very rare in Bavaria. If you come with 10 beers in a police control, the one who sits on the left car-side is probably checked by the stupid bavarian police.

It isn't that long ago that in snowy conditions in the Sierras, the California Highway Patrol used to insist on chains on the rear wheels of a front wheel drive car.

Chris

[Cees Klumper]

Ah, the number of Pagodas in the US.

It's anyone's guess, but here goes mine. About half of total production was originally exported to the US. Then there have been quite some reports of US servicemen and other Americans taking European delivery and repatriating cars to the US. So likely quite a few more than half made their way to US ports.

Then later however, and as exchange rates permitted, many Pagodas were exported back out of the US to Europe (and I am sure to other countries as well) and this is still going on today. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine put a W 107 he bought in the US on a ship in Jacksonville only last week, bound for Rotterdam. Many of the Pagodas sold through dealers here were recently imported by them from the US. Prices are now particularly low in the US compared to in Europe. So my rough guesstimate is that, today, maybe 40% of all surviving Pagodas are in the US.

Then the question becomes - how many Pagodas have in fact survived? Probably anywhere from, say 40% (i.e. 20,000) to maybe 60% (30,000). If you figure 50% then that put the total at 25,000 and the number of those residing in the US at 10,000.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[114015]

Yes, Cees,

I believe (my "guesstimate" - I like that word ) your numbers are closest to the reality.
The exact numbers ... nobody knows.
There is no database as for the 300 SLs or BMW 507s where all of the 242 survivors from the 250 which were built are known.
I am confident it will never be possible to count all W113 SLs - to many are hidden anywhere and waiting for their restoration or their final parting-out ... .

Between 20 - 30000 is most likely.

Best,

Achim
(Magdeburg, Germany)