Author Topic: Overdrive - 5-speed box  (Read 7873 times)

mille

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Overdrive - 5-speed box
« on: March 24, 2005, 02:55:52 »
Many years ago I used to own a Jag E-type S1 Coupe 3.8 1964 and apart from being of poor quality, there was one thing about the Jag that I really liked more than driving my 1964 230 SL manual: Highway driving. The low gearing in my Pagoda is just so anoying, it feels like I'm missing the top gear. Are there anybody out there who have experience in installing overdrive or a 5-speed gearbox from another MB? And what would it take to do it?

Cheers

/Finn

1964 230 Sl manual Euro
1988 230 E

mdsalemi

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2005, 07:47:55 »
Finn,

This is an often discussed topic to which there are two primary solutions; the first of course, is changing to an overdrive 5 speed transmission.  There is the famous, rare (and expensive) ZF 5 speed; there has been discussion of a Getrag? 5 speed being available and installed, and one of our members, I believe, has put in a modern Mustang (USA-Ford) 5 speed.  Of course the 5th speed is less then 1:1 making them overdrive which would provide you marginally less RPM at highway speed.  Unless this kind of mechanical work is routine for you, this is an expensive and time consuming option to pursue.

The other alternative is changing your rear axle ratio which is far easier to do; I believe the term is to "shorten" the axle.  You probably have the 3.92 standard gear set in your differential; you can go to the optional 3.69.  If I am not mistaken, (I'm sure others will weigh in here) there are other ratios from other MB vehicles of the era that will fit, and I think you can even install an entirely different differential ex-sedan as well.  Just wait, I'm sure you'll hear about other ratios and other experiences.  Suffice to say you can make these changes, and I believe they are a lot easier to do in the differential then at the transmission.  Before you pursue any of these options, you need to ask yourself the question, "How many RPM's drop at X km/hr will it take to make me happy?"  The last thing in the world you want to do is spend a lot of time and money on a project only to find that the X RPM drop you "bought" isn't sufficient to quiet things down to your taste.  For YOUR 1964 230SL, the factory charts show maximum output efficiency (150HP) of the engine at 5500 RPM, and peak torque at about 4250 RPM.  At 3500 RPM, your efficiency drops considerably to 100HP.  How do these RPM points compare to your typical highway speeds?  How low do you want to go?

Now, nothing like a little controversy to get those flames a goin' on a "hot" topic before a holiday!  (What?  You think I don't KNOW a controversial subject??) To that end, let me offer my humble opinion: most Pagoda owners, myself included, have the same "complaint" about high highway RPM's, but I learned to live with it.  Why?  Well, I have my car in the condition that the designers and engineers intended.  The engine revs higher, but remember it is a "system" of interconnecting concepts with torque, horsepower, drivability, etc.  It's all in balance, whether you believe it or not.  It isn't a design mistake.  Giant diesel engines in ships turn just a couple of hundred RPM.  Some racing engines routinely do 10,000 rpm.  Our Pagodas do what they do by design.  If you increase your rear axle, you'll have better "off the line" acceleration.  If you reduce your rear axle, you will lower the highway RPM's at the expense of acceleration. Change anything, and your speedometer is off. You can't have it all ways with your car unless you do something drastic like an engine transplant!  What I think bothers people is the concept of higher RPM's framed with their perceptions of what it should be, based upon modern vehicle experiences.  I will suggest that there is nothing inherently wrong with the RPM's our engines turn at highway speeds.  What's wrong, if anything, is the perception that its a problem.  It doesn't hurt the car.  If it hurts the driver, small foam earplugs (don't laugh, its serious: I wore them last year driving top down on the highway to Starfest!)are a very inexpensive and real solution!  At highway speeds around here and in my car, the wind noise is far noisier then the engine.

My normal driver is a Ford Explorer, with a 4.0l V6.  At highway speeds, 70MPH, it is just over 2,000 RPM and thus is extremely quiet.  Engine noise is non-existent.  This is an SUV, not particularly designed for quietness.  My guess is sedans are even quieter.  I think a lot of modern vehicles do the same, either with a combination of overdrives and axle ratios, and engines simply designed to turn fewer RPM's.  But there's no way we'll ever see the Pagoda turn 2,000 RPM at 70MPH.  It will always be noisier and higher revving then modern cars.  Enjoy the Pagoda for what it is.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 07:58:12 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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ted280sl

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2005, 09:41:03 »
Michael,
  Since you opened the topic I thought an important item was overlooked. It is my understanding that the smaller 3.69 rear end was delivered in Europe. The car was designed for this rear end to accomodate the higher speed driving on the autobahn. I replaced my standard US rear end with the 3.69 and have been very satisfied with the results. My RPM's are lower at highway speeds. My speedometer is off a bit but, I do not mind. I understand speedometeres are available for the smaller rear end. I have a standard shift 4 speed pagoda. First gear is so high revving that I do not feel I have lost performance.
Regards,
Ted

TR

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2005, 09:58:50 »
Ted -- I have considered doing what you've described.  But I've been concerned about a possible reduction in 0-60mph acceleration time, and a reduction in the ability to "grab some rubber" in 1st & 2nd gears.  With my current arrangement I can spin the tires pretty good when I (on rare occassion) hit 2nd gear hard, even producing a small amount of fish-tail.  That's a thrill I couldn't give up.  Lower rev'ing on long, high-speed cruises would be nice.  But could you "feel" the trade-off when it comes to acceleration?

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd

mdsalemi

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2005, 10:06:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by ted280sl

Michael,
  Since you opened the topic I thought an important item was overlooked. It is my understanding that the smaller 3.69 rear end was delivered in Europe. The car was designed for this rear end to accomodate the higher speed driving on the autobahn. I replaced my standard US rear end with the 3.69 and have been very satisfied with the results. My RPM's are lower at highway speeds. My speedometer is off a bit but, I do not mind. I understand speedometeres are available for the smaller rear end. I have a standard shift 4 speed pagoda. First gear is so high revving that I do not feel I have lost performance.
Regards,
Ted



Hi Ted,

According to the technical manual, the standard Euro model 250/280SL had the 3.92; optional was the shorter 3.69.  USA vehicles and and 5-speeds had the 4.08.  On the 230SL, standard Euro was the 3.75 and 4.08 on the USA and 5-speeds.  It's a good guess as to the higher autobahn speeds being the reason for the difference.

The kinds of questions I ask are--how fast do you generally go on the highway?  70, 80 MPH?  How much have your RPM's dropped?  Did you do this for noise?  For ostensible engine life?  Did it change your RPM's enough, or were you expecting more or less of a drop?  And yes, you can take your speedo out and Palo Alto or the other vendors can correct it for the change you made.

You raise a really interesting question regarding the 1st gear (on the automatic).  It is SO low, that as you know, the the car generally starts in 2nd.  As a 4-speed automatic, it was very unusual for the time. (n.b. today's Mazda6 has a nice 6 speed automatic--and it starts in 1st.)  There were plenty of 2 speed autos, most 3 speeds, but 4 speeds were uncommon.  I don't know enough about the various ratios and shift points, but I do know that the first gear on mine is rarely engaged in normal driving.  No I don't climb the Alps too often in it on switchback roads; perhaps that's the kind of thing they intended.  On rare occasions I just floor it to engage the kickdown to 1st JUST to make sure it still all works! :D  Can anyone offer a reason as to why such a low gear exists?  What were they thinking?

Me?  I'll leave the performance alone; stock up on earplugs, and enjoy the noisy ride of a 36 year old charmer. ;)

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

erickmarciano

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2005, 17:23:25 »
Hi My car is a 71 euro how do i know what rear end gear I have ? from the data card?if so where on the card?
thnaks
Erick
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A Dalton

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2005, 17:56:46 »
quote:
Originally posted by erickmarciano

Hi My car is a 71 euro how do i know what rear end gear I have ? from the data card?if so where on the card?
thnaks
Erick



 If you want to know for sure , there is a flat machined surface in front of the lower 2 bolts that hold the left axle outer tube to the differential casing . Scrape that surface with a razor blade and the ratio will be the last 3 digits stamped into that surface.  Euro uses a comma instead of a colon , so it will look like this....
 3,92, not 3:92
 With these cars seldom having the original owners and parts , there are times the diff does not match the data card specs, so this is what I have found to be the best place to check.....
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 18:06:08 by A Dalton »

norton

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2005, 18:27:39 »
Try this link to a another 5speed discussion
http://sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2432,ratio

CraigD

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2005, 23:14:21 »
quote:
According to the technical manual, the standard Euro model 250/280SL had the 3.92; optional was the shorter 3.69. USA vehicles and and 5-speeds had the 4.08. On the 230SL, standard Euro was the 3.75 and 4.08 on the USA and 5-speeds. It's a good guess as to the higher autobahn speeds being the reason for the difference.
.

I've read in Laurence Meredith's book that the US standard rear end became 3.92 in July of '69, and the European standard became 3.69 starting in November '69.  Is this accurate?



Craig DeVine
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Craig
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erickmarciano

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2005, 07:51:24 »
any way of knowing from the data card?

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

Ricardo

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2005, 08:11:54 »
Craigd
Meredith's book is known to be inaccurate in several places, so it seems that we must take his opinions with a grain of salt....
Erick
I don't think there is any info on the diff. ratio on the older datacards at least. At some point the cards changed and it's possible that it is on the newer version....
Ricardo

George Davis

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2005, 09:13:53 »
Engelen's book also says the ratios for the 280 SL were 4.08 in the US and 3.92 in Europe at first, later changing to 3.92 in the US and 3.69 in Europe.  Don't know the date of the change, but I think it was around the beginning of model year 1970.

I think the data card should indicate if an optional ratio was fitted.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 09:14:35 by George Davis »

Cees Klumper

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2005, 12:02:11 »
I swapped out my rear-end from 4.08 to 3.69 and this then reduced RPM by about 10%. Not a whole lot but I think the change was a good one. Yes, acceleration suffered a bit but since I put in my rebuilt engine, it's just fine (as in the Rolls Royce famous "adquate" when stating horsepower).

Still, Michael is right about the engine being designed to run at high RPM's and I have gotten quite used to it. When driving at higher speeds (say, 90 MPH) you don't hear the engine much anymore anyway, what with all the wind noise etc.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
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norton

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2005, 08:02:26 »
Screw the ear plugs, and even MB offered a 5 speed. The ratio's in the SL 4 speed box are spread to wide, to much RPM drop between the gears, and first gear is useless, and the shifter is no joy either. The stock MB 4 speed would be better suited to a FARM TRACTOR  ;)

mille

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2005, 10:37:42 »
Seems as most opt for change of rear differential rather than the gearbox. I don't know, had hoped for an easy swop of gearboxes rather than the compromise of having a higher diff ratio which potentially has influence on acceleration. Might go for the ear plugs - it's certainly the cheapest! :)

Thanks

/Finn

norton

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2005, 10:58:38 »
For anybody that wants to play around with the math of using a different trans or rear end, check out this site http://www.geocities.com/z_design_studio/

erickmarciano

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2005, 14:39:49 »
just looked at the rear end of my euro 71 and it says 3,69 on it

thanks for the help

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

norton

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2005, 15:12:39 »
With the MB 4 speed and a standard 3.92 rear gear, RPM @ 70 MPH = 3656
With the MB 4 speed and a euro 3.69 rear gear, RPM @ 70 MPH = 3439
With a T5 5 speed (.68 OD) and a 3.92 rear gear, RPM @ 70 MPH = 2462
As you can see the OD makes a much bigger differance in RPM













Benz Dr.

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2005, 15:32:06 »
These are the axel ratios from someone who's looked up the skirts of too many 113 cars:

230SL standard ratio is 3.75,   five speed cars have 4.08 which my car has. Very few drum brake axels have this 4.08 gear ratio. Most are often 4.10 in the lower powered sedans ( 110 ) of the time period. Diesels tended to use 3.70 or 3.90

250SL tends to have 3.69 as standard, 4.08 for the 5 speed car. May also have 3.92

280SL has 3.92 and ALL of the cars I've seen had this ratio. 3.69 is optional as well as 4.08 ( probably also used on 5 speeds )
4.08 is NOT a standard gear ratio sent to any particular country as far as I know.

So, there's really only 4 different ratios that I've seen. You can use a rear axel from a 280SE 4.5 that has 3.27 ratio which is pretty close to a 5 speed car with a 3.92 axel

At least I THINK this is pretty close to what you will find on most cars.

Dan Caron's
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1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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mdsalemi

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Re: Overdrive - 5-speed box
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2005, 06:43:44 »
Gents,

SHE'S HOME!  Yeah, I took advantage of a nice couple of days to CHOP THE ICE OFF THE %$#@ DRIVEWAY at my weekend home "up north" so I could get the 113 out and take her home for the season.  The driveway and all the snow and ice were defying the laws of thermo...it was in the 40's (F) and the ice was not budging.  It took 2 days of chopping for a couple of hours each day to clear a spot to remove the car!  The lake was still frozen over, and this is the latest I've ever seen things frozen enough that even those ice fisherman were out!

And I cruised home at 3,500-4,000 RPM, with some bursts faster as I needed to get IN FRONT OF the gravel haulers.  The last 60 miles was like a video game, dodging the large trucks and the crap they kick up.  No damage.  We have peculiar laws in Michigan.  We have the highest weight limit on trucks in the world.  MASSIVE double tractor trailers that haul gravel around.  They are so heavy that they bust up the roads.  Then we award the road rebuilding contracts to...you guessed it, the companies that haul gravel.[:(!]

I can honestly say I didn't hear any noise difference between just over 3,000 rpm and over 4,000 rpm which is the cruise rate...between the roar of the TimeValve, the wind buffeting the soft top it was no difference.  I was happy though, when cruising at 75MPH to be able to rocket to 90 in a flash to get past those trucks.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV