"Stubbies" Replaced; Stranded & Towed; Need Ideas

[ChrisInNashville]

OK, stubbies arrived today;   fuses replaced;  gone for a drive.

Two miles go by - everything's fine;  Come to a stop sign - engine quits.   Get it started, rough rolling at first, but hums along fine.   1/2 mile - stop sign - engine quits.   Starts again, engine sounding like it's straining - get about 100 feet and fortunately come to a school parking lot where it quits and won't start again.

So:
Battery:   12.4 volts
Alternator:   1 month old - Bosche Premium
Starter:    Turns over - won't 'catch';  sounds normal otherwise
Fuses:   All check out OK

Help me with possibilities:
- water/crud in fuel?   There was a tanker filling tanks on last fillup...With each fillup, I use this:  http://www.redlineoil.com/products_fueladditives.asp?productID=63
- fuel injection?  Hums along just fine except for the problems this week.
- fuel pump???
- something else?

I'm a novice,   everything I've learned about electrical and fuel systems (not much) - I've learned this week...HELP!

[plumzany]

I had this exact problem when I bought my 230SL only I was driving back from Omaha NE to my home in St Louis (a whole other story).  Got as far as KC and had the same problem, drive a little, stop, etc, etc, etc.  Found a replacement fuel filter at a small-town parts store, no help.  Finally nursed it to KC International, and made arrangement to store it at the service station on the airport. I had a couple of hours till my flight and the mechanic put the car on the lift, Guess What, there was a $1.50 in-line fuel filter installed between the tank and the fuel pump (turns out the tank was rusted inside).  Replaced that with one from their stock and cruised happily home.  Try installing one of these until you can get the tank checked out.  Very easy to install, carry an extra till you get your tank cleaned and lined.  Be sure to put in a new primary filter, and hope your pump's not full of crud.  

Cheers
MArty

[cth350]

Disconnect the fuel line under the hood and put a can there to catch the output.  There is a spec published someplace about how much fuel should be delivered in a specific period of time. Turn the key and find out.

Having a fire extinguisher handy is always a good thing when fuel is sloshing around freely in the presence of electrical components and don't smoke.

Another good thing to do on principle is to pick up a fuel line clamp and close off the line between the tank and the electric pump.  Then disconnect it from the pump and see what kind of crap is in the line.  I've seen them 100% blocked by rust.  That ain't healthy obviously.

Obviously, these are just the starting tests.  They are quick and simple.  The car operates correctly, one hopes, based on the assumption that sufficient fuel is reaching the engine compartment and the pump there gets a chance to use it and distribute it as required.  Testing that basic assumption is a good thing.

-CTH

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by cth350

Disconnect the fuel line under the hood and put a can there to catch the output.  There is a spec published someplace about how much fuel should be delivered in a specific period of time. Turn the key and find out.

CTH,
It's better to test at the return line to the fuel tank so the whole system is tested.

Chris,
Have you checked any fuel system "stuff"?
- Electric pump flow rate, as stated above.  If it is less than spec requires (1 liter in 15 seconds?) then continue below.
- Remove fuel guage sending unit from top of fuel tank (accessible through trunk) and use light to look for rust.
- Clamp and remove line from tank to fuel pump (as CTH said) and check for rust in fuel pump.
- Remove main fuel filter by engine and check for rust.  This is a messy job, fuel always spills out of filter canister.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Naj ✝︎]

Fuel filter changed recently???

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

[hauser]

I was having similar problems until I installed the Crane system.  This may not be your problem but the similarities seem to be the same.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[ChrisInNashville]

Here's what I've done so far:

1) Removed fuel filter (which predates my ownership) - seems OK, but I don't have a frame of reference...not much sediment in the the reservior.    My third hand is in St. Louis, so I can't get it back on without her help.

2) Clamped fuel line from tank to pump and removed pump input, but didn't appear to be clogged.   A little sediment, but didn't seem like enough to clog it.

3) Did not remove fuel gauge sending unit as I don't have containers to empty fuel tank.   I presume that removing that from a full tank is not advisable.

I suppose it's possible that once I get the fuel filter back on that it will start, but I have low expectations.

Any recommendations on the best method to empty fuel tank...I don't feel adequate expertise to empty through the fuel pump, so I'll likely seek a siphon unit?

[Naj ✝︎]

For what the fuel filter costs, I would replace it anyway.

How full is the tank? If not full to the brim, say 3/4 or below, you can remove the sender unit. All the cautions about playing with fuel apply!!! There is a cork gasket so treat with care and plan to replace as well.

I drained the tank by connecting a pipe to the pump outlet. This way, you can run it dry. Tank filter will also need new 'O' ring.

There is a gauze filter in the electric pump inlet.Did you remove it?

Also check the return line is clog-free and you can blow into the tank thru it.

Do you still have distributor points: if so are they in good shape? If not,could be a dodgy condenser.

Hope this helps.

naj



65 230SL
68 280SL

[jeffc280sl]

When you turned the key and the engine cranked but did not start could you smell gas?  If so I would say it's and electrical problem.  Start simple.  

Take the coil wire out of the distributor and connect it to a test spark plug.  Crank the engine.  If sparks fire, check rotor, plug wires.  If no sparks fire connect a test lamp between coil neg terminal and ground.  Crank the engine.  If the light flashes on and off the coil may have failed.  

Good luck

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[Mike Hughes]

If you have the old points ignition, the rubbing block on the point set can wear down if there is no lubricant applied occasionally.  This will close up the points and keep the plugs from firing.  Just opening up the points a little may get you running again, but the point set should probably be replaced because it will be pretty well pitted from running with next to no gap.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

[ChrisInNashville]

The Final Chapter:

a) Thanks to your collective guidance, it's driving again!
b) Once my wife returned from St. Louis, I had the third handI needed to replace the fuel filter.
c) Tried to start the car - no luck.
d) Checked the fuel filter reservoir - it was still empty.
e) Changed the fuse for the fuel pump (although it checked out fine last night) - voile it worked!
f) Drove around a couple miles in the neighborhood - no problem

From my earlier draining, I got a small jar of fuel that I filtered to show you the amount of sediment.   This came from the fuel filter reservoir and the tank to pump fuel line.   Does this look excessive to any of you?

http://www.chris.tietz.com/crud.jpg

It's a combination of very very fine sediment and then some larger pieces that don't appear to have the consistency of shredded paper.

Thanks for the help and guidance,
Chris

[plumzany]

IMHO, ANY Sediment in your fuel should be considered unacceptable.  The contamination will build up in your filter and eventually it will clog while running, then settle out and allow you to run again untill the flow picks up the sediment and clogs it again.  If your fuel pump is full of sh** from a dirty tank, that could be why you're blowing fuses.  Try installing a clear inline filter between your tank and fuel pump (this protects your pump), run your car a 100+/- miles, then inspect the filter. It will give you a good indication of the condition of your tank.  I carried a spare inline and a screwdriver for the first few months I owned my 230 until I could afford to have the tank cleaned and lined properly, got to where I could change it on the side of the road in about 5 minutes (not very good for your ego!).  
Cheers
MArty

[ChrisInNashville]

Marty,

Thanks - even with my limited automotive knowledge (which is increasing daily!) - I agree that fuel purity is key.  

My mechanic is 30 'country' miles from my house.   Now I think I'm able to drive to him rather than tow.   I'm going to ask him to focus on the tank and impurities in fuel delivery.

The sediment is exactly as described by Joe Alexander/cees klumper in a March 03 posting by rwaw (posting subject "fuel system").

So, it appears that at least sealing/cleaning the tank is in order or perhaps replacement.   I'm inclined to do things once...so it may be a replacement for me...

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by christietz

3) Did not remove fuel gauge sending unit as I don't have containers to empty fuel tank.   I presume that removing that from a full tank is not advisable.

Chris,

Go ahead and remove this unit.  You have to remove the power plug from it first, then pull the unit from the tank.  Very simple and self explanitory when you do the work.  You will need a new cork seal (very inexpensive) when reassembling it.  With this unit removed, you can look down into the tank to the "flow pot".  See this thread:

http://index.php?topic=1712

Look around with a bright light - I bet you see rust.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[mdsalemi]

Chris,

After living with a fuel delivery problem on an otherwise rebuilt and restored car, the culprit appears to be the fuel tank.  This is a good place to start.  Not for the weak--the tank alone is $900+


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[ChrisInNashville]

Notwithstanding the cost of the tank, how difficult a repair is replacing the fuel tank???    Reading the forum, it seems to me to be relatively simple due to easy assess - once the fuel system is drained and 'aired out'.

However, my mechanic (who's trying to retire and trying to keep things simple...) is sending vibes that it's very difficult.

Am I missing something here?    I'm not concerned about the money as much as I am a commitment to fix things right - once and for all.

[J. Huber]

I'll let the experts answer this but I know my guy has taken mine out before. While there was some labor involved, I don't recall any cause for alarm. (I think he has one of those tall cradle-jacks? or whatever you'd call them -- to ease it up and down).

James
63 230SL

[plumzany]

I removed mine when I had my tank re-done.  The hardest part was threading the fill and vent tubes back on, is fairly simple if the tank is empty.  It doesn't weigh much.

Cheers
MArty

[bpossel]

Hi Chris,

Replacing the tank is not too difficult.  As stated by others, the real trick is getting the filler tube through the holes.  I also had some issue with my muffler being in the way.  The new tank does not weigh much.  What I did was to lay on my back, had the new tank on my chest and with lots of trail and error (a few non needed words) and working with the muffler in the way and the filler neck challenge, it eventually slipped in place.  At this point an extra helper would be nice to assist with screwing the bolts back on while you hold it in place...

I am available next week to talk if you want to call me.
Regards,
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by christietz

Notwithstanding the cost of the tank, how difficult a repair is replacing the fuel tank???    Reading the forum, it seems to me to be relatively simple due to easy assess - once the fuel system is drained and 'aired out'.

On my 230SL it's held on by three bolts.  Simple remove/replace job except for "snaking" the filler neck through the hole in the body.  The rubber seal around the neck also does not like to go back on if it's hardened from time.  Just takes some messing around with.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420