SOLD Bring a Trailer 1967 250SL

[Benz Dr.]

Prices for CE vintage cars will take a nosedive in about 5-6 years when the push for EVs will further increase. The number of people who will be in the market for a gasoline powered car, especially vintage and collector cars will drastically decrease, mainly made up by those who do not drive but just keep them in storage/museum. And by then, most of them have what they want. If you are trying to make big bucks, sell as long as the prices are up. It will not last.

I'm not so sure about that. Electric cars have a place but I'm not the least bit interested in them. Vintage cars will always be collectable and unlike real estate, they can be moved to where the market is so they make good investments.

[Paul99]

Not so sure prices will drop. Try buying a 100 year old steam traction engine showman.  More expensive than a pagoda. So perhaps we have another 50 to go before the price drops.

[MikeSimon]

I really wish you guys would be right, unfortunately, you are not. If your window is 5-8 years, you need to sell in that time frame to get a decent return. Parts supply and dealer support will completely try up. MBZ Classics has a liquidation auction already.

[dirkbalter]

As long as there is a demand and money to be made, there will be suppliers regardless of MB's involvement.

[mdsalemi]

MBZ Classics has a liquidation auction already.

It would be unwise to draw any conclusions whatsoever from the story of MBZ parts.

Imagine you collected a few parts for old Mercedes, and some of them were quite valuable. Now imagine, those valuable parts were not one or two, but in the hundreds, and surrounded by thousands of very rare parts, along with common used parts. Multiply that by a large number, place it into a massive warehouse in a state that has the highest rental rates in the USA. That's what MBZ bit off when they bid on a massive collection of parts. The amount of parts involved was staggering beyond imagination, and thus simply dealing with it all was a costly logistical nightmare.

They were underfunded, couldn't raise investors, couldn't get an SBA loan.

Even the liquidation is going to be a long and painful process.

This is a blip; an anomaly for which there is no equal. Don't draw conclusions from this.

[MikeSimon]

It is just another example. They are not the only ones. How many of you have encountered suppliers that do not offer parts anymore?
If you guys think the rise of EVs is not going to affect vintage car demand and prices, I hope you are not holding on to a short rope.

[Benz Dr.]

It would seem that you're preaching to a choir of non believers. 

[RobSirg]

Might as well throw my 2c in as I consider myself unbiassed in the Automatic vs Manual debate.
I currently own both (Manual & Auto 280SL's) and I also owned a manual 250SL for many years and have driven ZF 5 speed 280SL's.

I so wanted to love the manual Pagoda as I love driving manuals.........but I must concede, that the best transmission IMO for the Pagoda is an Auto. The manual Pagoda could have been so much nicer if they had a better gearbox with better ratios. First gear is near useless and none of the gears make for a sporty change (nothing like my Alfa's).

I actually prefer driving my 190SL through the hills than the manual Pagoda -  if only they used that transmission! The 250SL was quite enjoyable through 2nd and 3rd on country roads, but you can almost get the same enjoyment by manually shifting your Automatic.

I also found the ZF 5-speed to be almost the same as the 4 speed except for the 5th gear  / overdrive, which is rarely used (by me anyway).

I have cars that I prefer to drive and those I prefer to look at - the Pagoda has always been my overall favourite and the one I drive the most (especially the Auto)

[Benz Dr.]

I took my car to London today and hit a stretch on the 401 doing 4,000 RPM in 5th gear. The speedo said 140 KPH which is probably pretty close to what it was doing. In my car the 5 speed really works but then it's no ordinary 230SL.

If the auto is working properly it can also be a nice option.

[RobSirg]

For sure Dan - your 'Red Rocket' is beautifully set up to be driven.

Here's another 2cents from me - my favourite Mercedes engine (hands down) the 3.5L in my W109.....oh so smooth, and has quite useable power/torque given it is a small V8 and 50+ years old.

The Pagoda is perfect for me....even it's imperfections, and as a purist, I keep my cars 100% stock.
However, how nice it would have been if a 3.5L was a factory option on a Pagoda..... (with air suspension perhaps)

[mdsalemi]

It is just another example. They are not the only ones. How many of you have encountered suppliers that do not offer parts anymore?

Yes, suppliers have come and gone over the years. When I restored my car, some of the top parts suppliers well known in the MB restoration community were Active Auto, Megaparts, Lyco Engineering, Star Quality Parts, Miller's and more. The only one I know of still around is Miller's after a few years of going quiet, almost folding, and finally being revived by new owners. I don't think any of this has to do with EVs.

The treasure trove of MB parts that MBZ ended up buying was simply way too large for a small operation to deal with; financially and logistically. I'm sure it could have been bought by others more seasoned in the business with deeper pockets, but even they probably saw the challenges. The owner/seller didn't want to deal with parting it out themselves; it would have left them with probably 80% of the parts and their goal was to move the goods out.

[zak]

Mike Simon, may I ask you your definition of " nosedive ". I want to be sure I understand.
If you mean classics will lose 50% of the value they have gained during this recent 5+ (?) year bubble, then I could agree with you.
But if you are predicting a real "crash" then I must also disagree.
jz

[PSB]

I think the age group of the buyers has an important bearing on the price. With the exception of the more rare or special ones, cars tend to start losing market/buyers after around 60 years . The sought after or dream cars "of our youth " start losing appeal as the next generation moves onto their generation's sought after cars.  I would Imagine the average age on this group is likely +60s . How many of us would get excited or go after a car from the 1940s or 1950s? A friend in his 70s recently sold an impeccable late 50s jaguar saloon car ( MK 1 or something like that ) and he was surprised to see the lack of interest/market versus 15 years ago when he sold the other one.Of course as referred before excluding rare or special cars that will command huge prices. I'm not sure our Pagodas are sufficiently exclusive to keep the interest of a large number of 30-40 year olds that will keep prices up.
Again always exceptions both in age of buyers or age of cars and some will always be seen as a business opportunity.. But generally I believe we are seeing the last generation of "mass appeal" for pagodas . 70s and 80s cars will be the next lot to start rising in attention and thus prices.  Of course I have no proof or solid evidence to back this , just a feeling and some observed patterns locally. If they will drop 20% or 50% I don't have a clue. But can't see this value curve keep going up. I just sold my pagoda last week and so I may be unconsciously looking for an excuse to justify something I may regret having done  ...
Cheers
Pedro

[RobSirg]

Every time I hear an argument as to why Classic Car prices should drop in value - I can easily mount a converse argument as to why they should continue to rise. So far the 'rise' argument tends to hold true.
(we've all the heard the argument that combustion engines will extinct soon....... I say they will be more exclusive /desired)

I'm 56 years old. I bought my first Pagoda at the age of 44. To be honest I had no idea what one was - they were before my time and I don't recall ever seeing one in my youth. If I did see one as an 18y.o in 1984, I doubt I would have been impressed. I caught the Pagoda bug from my wife who is eleven years my junior - clearly they are before her time also.

I drive my Pagoda most weekends with a group of enthusiasts. Two are older than me and two are younger. Tomorrow I am meeting a Pagoda owner who is much younger.

I guess Beauty knows no boundaries

[MikeSimon]

It would seem that you're preaching to a choir of non believers. 

Dan, I try to avoid to "preach". I also do not have the desire to be right all the time and thus attempt to "hammer my point home" with ever new arguments. As I said, I wish I was wrong here. I own almost 20 classic vehicles - 3 of them cars and 17 Motorcycles. What I see is the coming decrease in regular street use for these and consequently a decrease in desirability by a decreasing "fan base".  I am poised to sell most of it withing the next 5-8 years, maybe earlier. Sure, there will be those who hoard gas-powered vehicles (and steam powered machines), but these people are a small minority and at a certain point their demand has been fulfilled.
Yes, JZ -zak - the term "nosedive" may have to be clarified or more clearly defined, but for a car that was produced in 40-50,000 examples, values of $250k or more will no longer be there.
Parts suppliers will disappear, fuel will become more expensive and more difficult to get and people who know how to fix problems will become extinct. Just look at some of the recent car brands and models that have been made obsolete. You may think they should be collectible but they are not.

[zoegrlh]

If values are the question for our Pagodas, and a window to sell them for top money, I say sell and the. Put your money into a new 2023 Corvette. It by far is the best deal price wise for sports car. Those that have a nicely restored SL could get $100k plus in todays market, and pay cash for new Corvette, and have money left over. 

[zak]

Interesting discussion. I would agree that now is a good time to cash out if that's what you want to do. These bubble values won't be sustained, in my opinion forever.
The special/rare cars are a different market then our pagodas, sans maybe the quarter $ mil concours winners. Our cars are in a lesser price level so any whipsaw effect is minimized.
Will the MB Classic center ever stop supplying the parts  for ours and the other classic MBs ?  I cannot see it happening. It seems too lucrative.
All my kids love the car and classic cars in general, so I see a continued interest.
I don't see the EV market and gas prices have an outsized effect on the classic market.
The classic car market is like the weather ....

jz 

[MikeSimon]

Will the MB Classic center ever stop supplying the parts  for ours and the other classic MBs ?  I cannot see it happening. It seems too lucrative.

jz

As long as they have a decent amount of parts to sell, they will. But that is the issue. If you compare what was available ten years ago and is NLA now, you see where the trend goes.

[AdelaidePagoda]

For those worried EV’s may crash Pagoda prices, I have hedged my bets! 😀 It is like time travelling every time I swap cars