Author Topic: Lurchy, jerky....  (Read 2548 times)

Viva Stuttgart

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Lurchy, jerky....
« on: March 11, 2023, 04:41:26 »
New member here from Southern California who loves and adores their Pagoda. Even when she acts up and abuses me, I seem to love her even more. I may suffer from battered woman syndrome, but that's a separate issue.

        Here is what's going on with my Pagoda;

   Life was peachy, and my 1964 230SL was running very nicely 25 miles round trip (most of those miles were freeway miles), every day for perhaps 2 weeks straight. A British car friend was in town so I suggested we drive the Pagoda from Carlsbad to San Clemente Outlet Mall so he could experience a true Southern Californian Cars and Coffee.

         So we all went; the Brit, myself and the Pagoda, drove 43 kilometers (26.3 American miles), to San Clemente. It was such a lovely day-turned-afternoon, then out of NO WHERE, as we approached the freeway onramp for home, the Pagoda’s behavior drastically changed;
   

   - She started hiccupping, would lurch forward, then almost die, so pressing on the accelerator was necessary to keep her from dying, then you’d get the lurch-y thing again.

   - But at the same time, a ton of pressure had to be maintained on the brake to keep the Pagoda from driving itself through the intersection.


       
        We took shelter at a Mexican restaurant and drank margaritas while waiting for a tow home. Because the car caught between almost dying and lurching forward, I rode with the tow guy as he drove the Pagoda onto the flat bed cheering him on to “punch it” (accelerator) then “Ok Ok! Break! Break!” so the car wouldn’t hit the back of his cab.


   The following is the Pagoda’s abbreviated Medical history;
   
-      This 1964 230SL Euro version has been severely molested before acquiring it in 2016. Somebody had the gaul to;
-   Convert to an automatic transmission
-   Original engine removed, and a 280SE implanted in it’s stead.
   

   This forum is a wealth of information, and there are a handful of previous posts which closely resemble what we experienced that afternoon driving home from San Clemente.

Before breaking into open heart surgery on the car, is there a fluid level to check that may solve the problem? It’s been my experience with owning classic cars (American ones at least), that sometimes there is a very simple fix.

PREVIOUS FORUM POSTS describing similar symptoms:

- A September 12, 2009 response to a post from a forum user suffering from jerky gear shifting, directed him to the Linkage tour.

- A different post from April 26, 2009 endorsed changing the plastic transmission bushings as they tend to wear out and disintegrate.

- Stickandrudderman seemed to nail the general feeling in a September 13, 2020 post when he stated, “…there are so many idiosyncrasies to these cars; if they’re not properly set up then the symptoms are just some of the many ways that many faults can manifest themselves”. Sigh.

- The clutch seems to be another popular culprit…

- And lastly, May 10, 2009, someone on the forum suggested to another user suffering from similar symptoms, to replace the fuel pump, and or investigate possible fuel starvation, hence the fuel filter, a detached fuel feed line, or a clogged fuel tank that may have sediment in the bottom.



     So many places to start investigating, but again, is there a fluid level or something ridiculously simple that could be the culprit?

      Thank you for your consideration,


Marisa

1964 230SL Euro model;
1969 Ford F250 Ranger Camper Special;
1977 factory-commissioned convertible Lincoln Continental coupe;
2015 Acura MDX (boring);
My list of cars to acquire in my lifetime exceeds the word count....

Pinder

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2023, 12:53:18 »
Sounds like a fuel issue.
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.
1997 Corvette C5 Silver. automatic
2015 BMW 320i xdrive
2021 Mercedes GLS450 Silver

Viva Stuttgart

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2023, 15:43:30 »
OK, so where to start investigating if it is a fuel issue?


Marisa
1964 230SL Euro model;
1969 Ford F250 Ranger Camper Special;
1977 factory-commissioned convertible Lincoln Continental coupe;
2015 Acura MDX (boring);
My list of cars to acquire in my lifetime exceeds the word count....

Viva Stuttgart

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2023, 16:03:04 »
Also, the fuel injection was rebuilt 4 years ago, and there is a cold start button that sometimes I use when starting the car.

       If it is a fuel issue, then am I on the hunt to find a clog in the system?

Marisa
1964 230SL Euro model;
1969 Ford F250 Ranger Camper Special;
1977 factory-commissioned convertible Lincoln Continental coupe;
2015 Acura MDX (boring);
My list of cars to acquire in my lifetime exceeds the word count....

Vander

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2023, 16:05:02 »
I would investigate for stuck linkages, and have someone perform the linkage tour you mentioned.

Since you have a "cold start button" that tells me your car does indeed have fuel system issues. Because if set up properly there would never be a need for that button, and it could be removed from the car.
1969 280SL

Lorsar

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2023, 16:05:20 »
How much gas was in the car when it started having a problem?  My car would do something similar when it dropped below 1/2 tank.  It's due to rust in the tank getting sucked into the line, clogging it.  I replaced my fuel tank.
Lori
1968 280SL (US)

dirkbalter

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2023, 17:35:53 »
Hi Marissa,
As you have to start somewhere, I would also insure that you get sufficient fuel to the motor. Not sure if you are planning to do that yourself of have someone do it. In any case, its a relative easy and straight forward process.

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Fuel/Start

If that's not the issue, go to the next possible cause.
Dirk
66 230 SL
70 280 SEL
53 CHEVY 3100
18 C300 COUPE
05 HD FLSTNI

lreppond

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2023, 18:32:17 »
The lurching and jerking action after having been running fine suggests to me a clogged fuel injector(s).  Lori’s experience may be what’s happening to your car?  I’d start there unless there’s an issue with the linkage.

Colin’s comments are definitely germane here but you’ve got to start somewhere. For me, I’d check out the injectors.
~Len

1971 280 SL
576G red/251 Beige
4 speed manual
Family owned since new (father —> son)

dirkbalter

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2023, 20:51:05 »
The lurching and jerking action after having been running fine suggests to me a clogged fuel injector(s).  Lori’s experience may be what’s happening to your car?  I’d start there unless there’s an issue with the linkage.

Colin’s comments are definitely germane here but you’ve got to start somewhere. For me, I’d check out the injectors.

The car should run on 5 cylinders as well, not good but better than described imo.
Before I would pull injectors and send them for evaluation, I would insure the basics work - fuel, spark, linkage, before I get into the $$ repairs.
Dirk
66 230 SL
70 280 SEL
53 CHEVY 3100
18 C300 COUPE
05 HD FLSTNI

kampala

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2023, 21:45:15 »
Marisa

Hey, last time I had a problem similar to yours, it turned out to be a frayed wire at the coil. After doing every fuel test, I eventually moved the rubber boots off of the coil and saw that the thin wire was frayed.  New connector and all was good again.  Just in case, check the thin wires from distributor to coil. 

250sl - later - manual
280sl - 1971 - Auto - LSD

Pinder

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2023, 22:05:09 »
Also check there is no vacuum leak (the pipe going to the break booster). Does it start up? or not able to do that any more?
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.
1997 Corvette C5 Silver. automatic
2015 BMW 320i xdrive
2021 Mercedes GLS450 Silver

mdsalemi

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2023, 23:11:48 »
..last time I had a problem similar to yours, it turned out to be a frayed wire...

There's an old joke that says "carburetor" is a French word that means "It's the electrical system, stupid!" That was in an old service manual for an MG of yesteryear...where the author was trying to tell the DIYers that always think there's a fuel issue, to check the electrical system first. Of course these cars had LUCAS (Prince of Darkness) electrical systems, so of course you check that first...

It's probably easier to trace and correct electrical issues. Frayed wires = bad. I've had some similar issues a long time ago. Turned out the first set were electrical, then there was a later fuel issue. But the electrical is easier to diagnose.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
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Viva Stuttgart

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2023, 02:24:04 »
How much gas was in the car when it started having a problem?  My car would do something similar when it dropped below 1/2 tank.  It's due to rust in the tank getting sucked into the line, clogging it.  I replaced my fuel tank.

3/4 of a tank;
1964 230SL Euro model;
1969 Ford F250 Ranger Camper Special;
1977 factory-commissioned convertible Lincoln Continental coupe;
2015 Acura MDX (boring);
My list of cars to acquire in my lifetime exceeds the word count....

Viva Stuttgart

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2023, 02:32:20 »
Also check there is no vacuum leak (the pipe going to the break booster). Does it start up? or not able to do that any more?

The engine wouldn't turn over without the aid of the cold start button. But with the Cold Start on, the engine fired right up.

 The engine sounded robust and healthy until I turned OFF the cold start button then the idle noticeably dropped. So maybe this is indicative that not enough fuel isn't getting to where it needs to go?

1964 230SL Euro model;
1969 Ford F250 Ranger Camper Special;
1977 factory-commissioned convertible Lincoln Continental coupe;
2015 Acura MDX (boring);
My list of cars to acquire in my lifetime exceeds the word count....

teahead

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2023, 02:40:44 »
90% of hurkey jurky behavior is electrical.

Bad points, wires, plugs, coil, etc.
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"

Viva Stuttgart

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2023, 02:43:39 »
Hi Marissa,
As you have to start somewhere, I would also insure that you get sufficient fuel to the motor. Not sure if you are planning to do that yourself of have someone do it. In any case, its a relative easy and straight forward process.

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Fuel/Start

If that's not the issue, go to the next possible cause.

Dirk hello,

       Per the link you sent and under the Fuel Pump page, the article quotes "The flow rate of 1 litre per 15 seconds should be the flow rate measured from the return line at the tank end."   Is there a gauge to hook up at the return line at the tank end to measure the flow rate?

       
1964 230SL Euro model;
1969 Ford F250 Ranger Camper Special;
1977 factory-commissioned convertible Lincoln Continental coupe;
2015 Acura MDX (boring);
My list of cars to acquire in my lifetime exceeds the word count....

Viva Stuttgart

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2023, 02:51:03 »
Dirk hello,

       Per the link you sent and under the Fuel Pump page, the article quotes "The flow rate of 1 litre per 15 seconds should be the flow rate measured from the return line at the tank end."   Is there a gauge to hook up at the return line at the tank end to measure the flow rate?

     

   Nevermind, I found more specific instructions within the page. This may be a good starting point; " To see if it is a fuel problem, spray Starting Fluid into the intake and crank the engine. If it wants to fire, then it is fuel starvation. If it fires but sounds or feels rough or backfires, it is timing. If it does nothing, it is electrical."

mG
1964 230SL Euro model;
1969 Ford F250 Ranger Camper Special;
1977 factory-commissioned convertible Lincoln Continental coupe;
2015 Acura MDX (boring);
My list of cars to acquire in my lifetime exceeds the word count....

dirkbalter

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2023, 15:41:38 »
   Nevermind, I found more specific instructions within the page. This may be a good starting point; " To see if it is a fuel problem, spray Starting Fluid into the intake and crank the engine. If it wants to fire, then it is fuel starvation. If it fires but sounds or feels rough or backfires, it is timing. If it does nothing, it is electrical."

mG

Marissa,
This may sound stupid but did you check and ”wiggle “ all the fuses? Especially the one to the pump?
Dirk
66 230 SL
70 280 SEL
53 CHEVY 3100
18 C300 COUPE
05 HD FLSTNI

Pinder

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2023, 16:06:45 »
The fact that it starts when  you use your special  button which adds fuel to the intake points to fuel issue . Check the linkage at the fuel injection pump to make sure it’s connected to the the thick rod going across the engine. Maybe it popped off?
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.
1997 Corvette C5 Silver. automatic
2015 BMW 320i xdrive
2021 Mercedes GLS450 Silver

ja17

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2023, 16:36:03 »
Good advice from Mdsalemi., clean (or replace) and gap the ignition points. Start with the cheap things first! Ignition electrical issues do not always make logical sense.  Next measure fuel pressure and volume.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
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rwmastel

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2023, 19:20:47 »
Marisa,

You've received a LOT of advice in 2 days.  These cars can get complicated.  You're looking for simple checks to do first, and that's smart.

Are you doing this work yourself?  Are you asking for info to pass on to a mechanic who is not experienced in these cars?

Of course, you need fuel, air, spark, and compression.  Start with fuel.  Simple things are:
- replacing main fuel filter (low cost)
- replacing in-tank fuel filter (low cost)
- checking fuel flow rate at return line to tank (free!)
- checking fuel delivery to the injectors (free!)
Can you check fuel pressure?
Who rebuilt your injection pump?

When discussing what you found in other threads, you can link to those threads, or even the specific messages, so we can all read that stuff in context.
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
2017 C43 AMG
2006 Wrangler Rubicon
1966 230SL auto "Italian"

Viva Stuttgart

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2023, 08:26:48 »
Thank you all for the practical advice and suggestions. The culprit? One of the linkage points disconnected. It was a super easy fix.

       Thanks to the collective input received, I did end up investing in a fuel flow kit and the Pagodas & Beer guys were very nice to show me how to use the kit at the last meet up in Rancho Santa Fe.


       Thank you all again!

Marisa Gustafson

       


1964 230SL Euro model;
1969 Ford F250 Ranger Camper Special;
1977 factory-commissioned convertible Lincoln Continental coupe;
2015 Acura MDX (boring);
My list of cars to acquire in my lifetime exceeds the word count....

Bshaunessy

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Re: Lurchy, jerky....
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2023, 14:49:45 »
Ahhhh……a good thread to read AND A HAPPY ENDING!!