offtopic - 300sl gullwing possible purchase

[TerenceD]

I know this is offtopic, but I am asking a lot of questions to inform myself.  It has been passed to me that an older gentleman wants to sell his Gullwing.  From what I know he is the original owner, the car is a 1957, and it has not been driven in 25 years.  I will be traveling to view the car, and I would like to inform myself as much as possible about these cars.  To that end I have a few questions;

 

is there a list of engine numbers and chassis numbers available, so that I can verify if the engine is original ?
is there any database of serial numbers and owners, so that I can verify if he is the original owner ?
I am unsure of the condition of the car, but I am assuming that it is a restoration case.  If it is a restoration case, what would be a fair price to pay, roughly speaking, for a restoration case (I am assuming somewhere around $80 - $120,000 US).
Can you give me a rough idea of who the specialists are in this marque in North America and Europe ?
Can you also give me a rough idea of what a complete restoration, properly done by one of the marque specialists, would cost ?  I am assuming somewhere between $100,000 and $200,000 US.
Are there any particularly important things that I should be looking for.  I realize that this is an all encompassing question, but any help you could give would be appreciated.

Any help from fellow members who may have some knowledge about this would be greatly appreciated
 

Thanks,
Terence

 

[Chad]

I wish I had the dilemma that you have.  Anyway, I am certainly not knowledgable of 300SL, but having owned a couple very rare cars of other marques I can say that I believe the big issues, in the following order, for a car of which only 1400 were made are the following:

(1) Completeness (above all, as parts cost $$$$$ if obtainable)
(2) Originality
(3) Rust

Don't worry nearly as much about mechanicals, everything mechanical can usually be rebuilt for the price/effort.
Contact Mercedes Benz Classics division if you want to make it like rolling from the factory for $$$,$$$s.
There is a guy in Arizona, I believe, who focuses on these maybe.  I believe he frequents this W113 forum.

I have moved on to more common cars that I feel comfortable to drive.  Wish you the best of luck!!!



-CD-
1967 230SL
1983 300TDT

[TR]

Guys -- In the off-chance anyone on this board isn't too put off by my posting of late, I can tell you that I had the opportunity to visit with the fellow in Arizona mentioned.  This was a little over a month ago.  Wonderful guy, with a terrific team, and I lost count of how many 300SLs were at his place.  As well as beautiful 280SLs.  It was a great experience; and not one I'll soon forget.

Terence, here's a web-site link:  http://www.ranchomerced.com/



Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[Benz Dr.]

First of all forget MB classic centre and go to a specialty restoration house. Rudy in Vancouver BC is one of the better places. He did a former Prime Minister of Canada's car last year. He also did a friends car after it was heavily damaged in an accident. Mark Passarelli, Scotts and Jeltness ( sp ? ) are some of the better places. No doubt there. RM restorations neaby me in Chathan Ont Canada is also a world class operation more than capable of this job. Expect to dump $250,000.00 or more before it's done. Condition of car is somewhat relative as everyning would be done anyway. I saw one at Meadowbrook a few years back that hd all of the pannels made by hand and it won it's class.

You can get a fairly complete list of cars and owners from the Gullwing group and some members would likely have this list. The 1961 I did sold for $125.000 and the same car in the same condition would be closer to $200.0000. This was a mechanical restoration I did.

1957 was the last year for the Gullwing so it would have some better features than an early one but it's the first 29 alloy bodied ones that  bring the biggest prices.
 I'd take the roadster over the Gullwing any day. They're noisy, uncomfortable and very hot to start with but the Gullwing is unbearable unless it's cool outside.  

It is one of the finest engine sounds you will ever hear. Nothing sounds like a 300SL.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org

[Douglas]

Here's a good primer:

http://silverstarrestorations.com/300SL.htm

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[TerenceD]

Thanks for the info - the website is excellent, lots of good information.  The only thing I am unsure of is what I should be paying for a restoration case car, $50K, $80K, $100K, $120K ?

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by TerenceD

I know this is offtopic, but I am asking a lot of questions to inform myself.  It has been passed to me that an older gentleman wants to sell his Gullwing.  From what I know he is the original owner, the car is a 1957, and it has not been driven in 25 years.  I will be traveling to view the car, and I would like to inform myself as much as possible about these cars.  To that end I have a few questions;

 

is there a list of engine numbers and chassis numbers available, so that I can verify if the engine is original ?
is there any database of serial numbers and owners, so that I can verify if he is the original owner ?
I am unsure of the condition of the car, but I am assuming that it is a restoration case.  If it is a restoration case, what would be a fair price to pay, roughly speaking, for a restoration case (I am assuming somewhere around $80 - $120,000 US).
Can you give me a rough idea of who the specialists are in this marque in North America and Europe ?
Can you also give me a rough idea of what a complete restoration, properly done by one of the marque specialists, would cost ?  I am assuming somewhere between $100,000 and $200,000 US.
Are there any particularly important things that I should be looking for.  I realize that this is an all encompassing question, but any help you could give would be appreciated.

Any help from fellow members who may have some knowledge about this would be greatly appreciated
 
Thanks,
Terence

Terence,

Drivable 300SL's, particularly gull wings, are expensive beasts indeed.  Any car that sits for 25 years is going to need some work.  If there isn't much rust and the body is solid, that's going to significantly reduce your cost to restore.  If it has one owner, and has been sitting for 25 years, you may indeed have found a gem.

I believe your best bet would be to join or contact the gull wing group, http://www.gullwinggroup.com/ and try to speak with some members.  These are the guys who have the cars, have the money to repair them, have bought and sourced the parts, and have lived with the beauty, charm, and headaches.  I would consider the group of owners collectively to be the greatest source of information.

Note also that it is a small community.  In Michigan, through the MBCA and a couple of car shows, I know four owners.  If I had a question, these four would then put me in touch with others.  I would suggest that no 300SL owner is an island; they are all plugged into each other as that's how you have to be.  Start making calls and making friends.

All of the questions you ask--serial numbers, chassis numbers, marque specialists, etc. is all very old information and compiled by people like the gull wing group and its members.  You may have to get it through a member, however as I'm sure they don't just give this information out for the asking.

Good Luck!  I just saw a 300SL yesterday at Motorwerks when I did a tire swap.  Gorgeous, and this one isn't really pristine, either!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Douglas]

Terence,

When a friend of mine was looking at a 300 SL that was for sale -- but in pieces -- the owner said to him: "I could give you this car and you'd still lose money."

Of course, I have no idea what kind of condition the car in question is in, but I'm assuming it's a genuine project.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to buy the car. You just have to know what you're getting into here.

Personally, I hope people keep buying and restoring all these cars, Pagodas and Gullwings alike. If it were purely a financial decision, many of them would simply vanish and that would be a pity.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[Naj ✝︎]

Doug,
Could it have been this one :?:



Download Attachment: esn097.jpg
38.91 KB

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

[Douglas]

No, i don't think that was the car, Naj. I don't think it was nearly that bad. From what I remember, it was a  restorable car that was reasonable, but in pieces. The owner was selling his collection due to an impending divorce.

My point was that there is no correlation between what it costs to restore a car properly and what it's worth before that restoration. I suppose the pre-restoration value is loosely based on the value of its pieces, which could be considerable for a Gullwing.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[RBurg]

Try contacting John Olson Mpls with the SL Newsletter. If you need more info call me on land line 651 552 0648.
Good Luck
Ron

[TerenceD]

Naj,

DO you have any idea on what that car sold for ?  I am having a real rough idea as to the value of a restoration candidate 57 gullwing.

[Naj ✝︎]

Hi, Terence,
 

quote:Naj,

DO you have any idea on what that car sold for ? I am having a real rough idea as to the value of a restoration candidate 57 gullwing

That picture was just for a 'wind up'

It was on display at the Techno Classica in Essen this year as a piece of art.

Prices for Gullwings in Europe are around 200K to 250K euros for ones in reasonable shape and running order. Restoring one at Keinle Automobiltechnik, HK engineering or similar costs about as much again.

Off to buy that lottery ticket [:p]

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

[ranchomerced]

I'll give you $225K for it sight un-seen if it is complete and has good title. Mark Passarelli 480 488 1804 see my website @ www.ranchomerced.com

[Jonny B]

In case you are still looking for reference material, beyond the Gullwing group. There are three books with some excellent background on the 300SL's, Nitske has one (available from time to time on e-bay, that reprints sections of the owners manual for both coupe and roadster), Ludvigsen (fairly new and should be available through Amazon) that has tons and tons of very detail pictures, and one by Adler that has some detail information about the serial numbers and production. I believe that one is readily available as well.

I was reading through Automobile magazine, and they regularly hilite auction results, they showed a gullwing, that was what they called a "barn find" that even from the thumbnail picture was a nasty looker, sold for 200k+!

Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto

[TerenceD]

Mark,

Thanks for the info, but I may be interested in keeping it myself.  I am coordinating to see the car as soon as possible.  After I view it I will report my findings to all.  If I keep the car I will need to procure the services of a professional to restore this car.  Having said that, I will remain skeptical about everything until I actually see the car and negotiate a purchase price.

Thanks,
Terence

[TheEngineer]

And then there is Siegfried Linke in Seattle: 206.953-3317 (cell) He has a few of those cars. Took one to Australia to race in a rally. Got stuck at full trottle because he had plated the throttle linkage and, normally, at least in Seattle, he never pushed it at full throttle. Siegfried knows everything there is to know about Gullwings. He had a MB shop, but is retired now. Goes to Germany every year to keep up with the latest on Gullwings. He does the very best work I have ever seen, but then, he served an apprenticeship as automobile mechanic and later became a "Meister". He is also very honest. If you really have the money and the inclination to buy one, make a downpayment with the stipulation that the car is to pass a satisfactory inspection by Siegfried. I did.

'69 280SL,Signal Red,007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle, WA

[TerenceD]

Thanks for the valuable info, all the support and advise everyone has given me has been invaluable