Author Topic: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK  (Read 1686 times)

Geofw113

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • United Kingdom, England, chichester
  • Posts: 7
Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« on: July 16, 2024, 07:50:21 »
Hi all.

We have a 1967 250sl which we bought from the Beverly hill car club almost 10 years ago.

My dad bought it but has since lost any vehicle history that it ''might'' have had with it, but he cant remember what it came with due to his age now.

I have emailed the Beverly hill club and as expected they can not give out details.

I do have the sellers Maryland title certificate which has his full name and address and drivers licence number.

I have found some websites giving me his phone numbers linked to his address but all seem to be out of service or i get no answer so i tried USA white pages but it refuses to let me see phone numbers ' cant see records from outside USA' which doesnt help us much.
so then i tried looking up phone numbers for Maryland vehicle licensing but cant find any numbers to call.

Can anyone help with how i might find this old owner, who to contact over there in the USA?

We would like to show him his old car and hope he might be able to tell us some past history etc that we can at least add to the alreadt thin document history.

Yesterday i emailed classic Mercedes in Germany and they have said a copy of the data card, which we do have a photo copy of will cost about £150 and can also ask for the technical data sheet if i contact Mercedes archives so will get what we can from them.

Due to the fact we have no documents i am on the look for a set of book/manuals that would have come with every car.
Where can i find these? Is there a correct set of manuals for a 67 auto 250sl or were they just generic covering all models etc.... without even one book i am a bit lost as to what i should be looking for exactly.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to try and find/build up the cars history while it was in the USA from the uk?

Thanks

« Last Edit: July 16, 2024, 08:18:34 by Geofw113 »

BobH

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • United Kingdom, England, MALDON
  • Posts: 962
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2024, 08:53:47 »
Hello, i think you'll have difficulty finding previous owners, others have tried with no success, but maybe someone will have some more ideas, with a bit of luck they may have been a member on here

Regarding the car literature, have a look on here, this will tell you what should have been supplied with the car, and other literature that was and is available

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Restricted/PagodaNotes?action=download&upname=PNv2i3.pdf

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Restricted/PagodaNotes?action=download&upname=PNv2i4.pdf

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Documents/OwnerManual
February 1965 230SL Automatic
UK delivered RHD
Papyrus white, blue hard top & hub caps
Blue soft top
Blue leather

AndrewB

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • , Channel Islands, Forest
  • Posts: 173
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2024, 08:56:04 »
A member of this group, Alpina, is based in Spain and can create data cards in pdf that you print out. Mercedes will give you nothing better than the photocopy for your £150
1969 280SL (unrestored)
1970 280SL (fully restored)
1971 Range Rover Suffix A Kingsley Restomod
1987 500SL
2002 Porsche 996 Targa
2011 Landrover Defender TdCi
2019 Mercedes S560 Cabriolet

Geofw113

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • United Kingdom, England, chichester
  • Posts: 7
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2024, 09:51:11 »
Thanks for the replies!

Bobh - i was hoping just to get some verbal or anicdotal histry from the last owner and he might remember if there were any previous owners, anything we can write down about the past of the vehicle would help keep some written past to the car.
It is such a shame to have the missing history as the car was very rustless when we bought it only needing some small patches in the front floor pans and we replaced the boot floor as it was a little dented and had some small rust holes and having replaced or rebuilt most of the mechanical parts..... thanks for those links i shall go and take a look.

Andrewb - also thanks i shall try and contact Alpina, it would be nice to have atleast a reproduced data card rather than just a photo copy.

would somebody know of any USA phone numbers of any phone directories etc that might help us contact the old owner, i have searched for the USA white pages but they donth seem to have any contact details available, not even an email.

thanks so much for the help so far.

harrycovert

  • Associate Member
  • Junior Level
  • *
  • France, Midi-Pyrénées, castanet
  • Posts: 21
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2024, 11:29:13 »
I have a 250 SL which had previously been in the US I use the address from the American title ,sent a letter including a stamped addressed  envelope and an email address and even though the guy hadn`t owed the car for the last five years I got a reply got to be worth a try.

zoegrlh

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, VA, Williamsburg
  • Posts: 808
  • Beauty from top BCW
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2024, 12:30:32 »
It could be possible that the previous owner was a member of our club. Did you search our membership records tracking the VIN number?
Robert Hyatt
Williamsburg, VA.

W113, 1970 280SL, Red leather 242 on Silver Gray Met. 180, 4-speed stick, Euro spec, restored
R172 2012 SLK350, Black Premium leather 801 on Mars Red 590, 7-speed auto
W211, 2007 E320 Bluetec, Cashmere MB Tex 144 on Arctic White 650, 7 speed auto

Geofw113

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • United Kingdom, England, chichester
  • Posts: 7
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2024, 06:47:24 »
Harry, we also thought the old fashioned way of pen to paper might stand a chance, glad to hear you got a reply!

Zoegrlh, i did not know that was a search option, thanks.... just tried it by putting vin into member search, sadly nothing.

I am leaving back to Portugal tomorrow for about 1 month as it is fire season and have land to clean, while i am there i am sure i will have some other questions while a trawl the site picking up info.
 Thanks to the full members section i now have two nicely working and closing!  Door windows 8)

Will update here if we make contact with the old owner.

zoegrlh

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, VA, Williamsburg
  • Posts: 808
  • Beauty from top BCW
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2024, 15:38:02 »
Great lw113, wife and I were talking n Portugal some months ago, fell in love with it. And to say a Pagoda will look real nice on their roads. Take pictures.
Robert Hyatt
Williamsburg, VA.

W113, 1970 280SL, Red leather 242 on Silver Gray Met. 180, 4-speed stick, Euro spec, restored
R172 2012 SLK350, Black Premium leather 801 on Mars Red 590, 7-speed auto
W211, 2007 E320 Bluetec, Cashmere MB Tex 144 on Arctic White 650, 7 speed auto

RAY

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • United Kingdom, England, Bromley
  • Posts: 512
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2024, 17:45:54 »

I was in a similar place a few years ago, I have a 69' 280 and wrote to the previous owner, a doctor in Massachusetts, for the same reasons and got no reply.

A friend of mine wrote to his previous owner of a 70' 280 in America and got a phone call and a letter, amazing.

It's just the luck of the draw I guess ?

Peter van Es

  • Honorary Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Netherlands, North Holland, Nederhorst Den Berg
  • Posts: 4074
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2024, 11:15:27 »
Zoegrlh, i did not know that was a search option, thanks.... just tried it by putting vin into member search, sadly nothing.

Did you look here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Registry/Start
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7054
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2024, 11:48:21 »
I’m not entirely understanding why there seems to be a desire to determine provenance of an old car. Information you get may be wrong.

Some years ago I helped a member from Poland find a Pagoda to buy in the USA. As luck would have it an older German woman, a friend of mine, decided it was time to sell her 1971 Pagoda, one of the last ones made. She was the original and only owner. So—you would have thought that this was ideal for those with the penchant for provenance.

Ah, not so much. Her recollections of the car, the condition, the work that had been done on it—basically everything was a bit off. Time—in this case decades had simply clouded her memory. We found, in the examination on site, of bodywork when she insisted none was done. Some missing items she couldn’t recall why. A respray when she insisted the paint was original. Even my recollections of our inspection are a fading memory now. When the car got back to Poland, and some restoration started the new owner (he was named Paweł but I don’t think he’s a member here any longer) discovered other things that didn’t mesh with the one and only owners recollections.

So…not all is what it may seem. Even from an owner.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5717
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2024, 16:19:33 »
I had something similar. I bought a 1972 VW 411 a few years ago to restore. It came with a large amount of 'history': maintenance records, receipts, old registrations and so on. Turned out, most of that was for an entirely different 411 that a previous owner had owned at some point, and somehow got mixed in with my car's records.  Anyway, I am never too interested in all that history. Much more fun to make sure the car is 100% now, enjoy it by driving it, and making plans with it for the future.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Geofw113

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • United Kingdom, England, chichester
  • Posts: 7
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2024, 08:51:09 »
Thanks for all your input everybody, It has taken me a while to reply as now back in Portugal and a farm doesnt run itself sadly.

Zoegrlh -
being new i still have a lot to learn on how the site works, i just tried your second link and used the 'find', sadly no luck, but appreciate your help!
I have lived in Portugal for 10 years now and this was my first visit back to the UK to see my parents and help get the car done, i flew back, not such a nice experience as driving a 250SL back.
They visited us just before Christmas gone and drove the whole way in a Bentley Turbo R my dad bought a few years back for the power steering as he is getting on a bit
Bit off topic, my dad has had a thing for the old Alfa 2600's for many years and has owned 3 now, he sold his first one we completely rebuilt, new sills, floors, well it was an Alfa so came out of the factory already rusting.
Currently we have another 3, 2600's in our garages, one has had all the welding done, again new complete sills, floors etc etc and is now in paint waiting for its re-fit after the Merc is done. My father has a huge stock of parts for these Alfa's, i think we have 3 spare complete engines, gearboxes, camshafts, panels, hardtops, chrome trims and even a complete nos front nose panel............ one of the Alfas i will have to make nearly the complete rear end by hand, i attached a photo of our next Alfa to be done and some pics of my Zinc plating of the 250sl door components.

mdsalemi -
I understand where your coming from with some info may not be 100% correct or even able to verify it but after 30 plus years owning a large bodyshop in the UK, we restored hundreds of classic cars, some very special with serious provenance.
I am sure you know this already but two identical cars, one with history and one without any history, the one with history will always be worth more and will sell quicker.

My father had many Aston Martins when i was younger,
 i restored one DB5 he had, bought out of an old run down garage in a back street in London, almost abandoned but in reasonable condition.
We  did all the bodywork and then my dad had the car shipped to Aston Martin and had the "works" package added.

Many years later he sold it, then about 6 months later after this car had been displayed on a rotating stand at London's biggest auction house, if i am right in saying it was a female, i think the director or something from Jaguar cars, she had bought the car and doing what  my father hadnt she was compiling the previous owners, she told my father the first owner was "Tony Hancock" from Tony Hancocks half hour, a comedian early TV....... it added over 80K in value to the car, so in my opinion history is nice to have but can also make a difference.

I know these beautiful Mercs are a different breed and are many more of them on the roads and i am not expecting to find a famous past owner but it would be nice just have something to add to the file, even if some of it is "anecdotal"  as my father doesent even have any of the booklets, only a receipt from Beverly hills car club and the data tag.

I was hoping in the USA you might have something like we have in the UK, known as the 'DVLA'.... we can apply to them for all past owners and old MOT's.... is this service available in the USA?
Like i have said before i tried the white pages website but refused to show me records as it says " i am outside America"
Could anyone help give me some phone numbers in the states for these organizations like white pages or the US version of the DVLA as my google searches dont help me much with phone numbers.


My dad has spent a fortune on this car, the engine has been fully rebuilt with hardened valves etc for modern fuels, original injection pump fully rebuilt, gearbox stripped serviced, new suspension and brakes and lines, all original dash clocks being serviced by UK specialist and a fully serviced original becker europa radio, a full period correct interior, he got some of the last original carpet sourced by our trimmer..we also purchased a new hood frame and sonnenland hood as the old frame had lost its spring locating "fingers" but original hood will stay with the car ....... it seems a shame a car that has had this much work done has ZERO history with it.
We have worked very closely with the SLShop in the UK to get things as correct as can be and we are working to make it the best car we can, if it's not meant o be then thtas fine but doesnt hurt to try and build some history.
 



Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5717
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2024, 12:22:16 »
Just to note the valve (seats) on these engines were already fit for today's fuels as they came out of the factory.
May I recommend you use a VPN service that lets you surf US based websites from an American city? This way you won't be 'locked out' from surfing there. As you may know, each state has always maintained its own vehicle records, there is no United States National database of vehicles, certainly not that old, that would lead you back the trail to previous owners.
Have you tried approaching Alex Manos of Beverly Hills Car Club? They're still in business and may have some records of your car.
Due to privacy laws, or at least concerns that most if not all US State Departments of Motor Vehicles will have around the possibility of being sued by individuals whose private information they could disclose, I think you won't get far approaching any State's DMV with questions about prior owners. I recall several threads like this one where other members were trying to obtain that information.
Unless the previous owner was Stirling Moss, Kate Moss, John Travolta or John Lennon or similar class, don't count on a material 'well known previous owner premium' for a Pagoda.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Geofw113

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • United Kingdom, England, chichester
  • Posts: 7
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2024, 13:38:50 »
Hi Cees Klumper.
Well if the car already had valve seats etc, they have either been renewed or had the valves upgraded, my dad's memory is going and i have only been working on the car a few months, body etc so when i return to the UK i have already set a meeting up with the mechanic who did all the work to find out exactly went on with the rebuild, thanks for that info, i still have a LOT to read up on on these cars and this engine.

I assumed i would not get info from any organizations due to personal data laws.
I did email Alex at BH club, i sent a copy of the new vehicle owners document, now in my fathers name since he imported it direct from them, i also added some other identification and the email i used was the same as we used to buy the car... he replied saying he could not give out any details, which is a shame, slightly understandable but as my dad bought the car direct from them i hoped they might have been able to help us a little more.... i will try again.

I am not expecting any famous owners, just anything i can add to a bare history is better than nothing.

Great idea about the VPN blocker, i will give it a try, thanks!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2024, 06:36:56 by Geofw113 »

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7054
Re: Finding previous owners of a USA car from the UK
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2024, 13:33:58 »
I have not bought a Pagoda, nor have I sold one, and I have also not shopped for one nor been in the market on either side of the transaction. That being said, my own gut feeling is I would not place any premium on prior ownership, but rather would place all value on the current condition. But that's just me; maybe with all of your prior experience you have a different opinion.

Privacy laws not withstanding, any dealer has the full ability to contact a prior owner (if they know them) and ask them if they wouldn't mind being revealed to the new owner. No laws violated there. Maybe the prior owner wants to remain anonymous and maybe they'd be happy to talk about their ownership. The provenance, without the paperwork is certainly of no value. Maybe provenance has some value if there is a large book of receipts, the original ownership documents, etc. but if it's just "Once owned by John Smith of Pittsburgh Pennsylvania" this is surely of no value, but may give you some kind of joy just talking to a prior owner. Would do nothing for me however.

I did have my own experience with this. Many years ago, in the mid to late 1990s, my wife and I knowingly bought, through a special employee program, the Taurus SHO (2nd generation) owned by "Billy Ford". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Clay_Ford_Jr. He is as close to living automotive royalty as it gets. He was driving a navy blue SHO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Taurus_SHO, and my wife "tagged it" for purchase. Now, while he had the car (from new), it was cared for daily by the Ford staff, washed all the time, and one would think this crew would have perhaps treated Mr. Ford's car just a bit better than the rest. For those not in the know, the SHO was a Ford Taurus, factory modified with performance specifications the most notable of which was the Yamaha engine and a five speed manual transmission. Mr. Ford's SHO was the third of a series of SHOs we had...

...and by far, the absolute WORST. Being in the mid 1990s there were no pocket cell phones as we know them, but a car phone that was bolted to the side of the console. When they removed it they made no attempt to even cover the holes. The clutch was WAY out of adjustment. The car had squeaks, rattles, and made other sounds that were annoying and showed a lack of care. There were other things wrong with it that SHOULD have been caught during Mr. Ford's ownership, but were not. It was so bad that we only kept it for a short while before ordering a new one. I think over the years we had at least one in each generation and loved them all...except the one with "provenance".

I should note that another car we had once had some squeaks and rattles, and my wife made some calls at work, had the car brought to engineering's "squeak and rattle machine" (it's a real thing) and they cured about all of them.

So, speaking for me, I will place no value on any provenance, but all value on the condition of the car. That's most important.

Yes, if this is of interest you can get some VPN but understand getting free information these days from the white pages or other such search engines is challenging at best; it used to be easy a few years ago before they monetized everything. They'll be happy to sell you a packet of information if you locate someone. They also sell subscriptions.

As Cees pointed out, we here in the USA are 50 States and a number of other provinces and territories (such as Samoa, Puerto Rico, etc.) each with its own rules and laws. The general public can not get information from any of them about anything but your own car. The [peculiar] British tradition of a number plate staying with a vehicle doesn't exist here either. My car had many of them in NY when it was my Uncles 1969-1998; three of them in Michigan while I lived there, and two of them here in North Carolina!

Maybe ask Alex Manos if he would simply pass on your information to the prior owner. Surely he should do that.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV