Auto paint sales to general public to be banned

[ranchomerced]

Just a note about paint: the epa is getting geared up to ban sales of ALL automotive paint supplies to non certified users... see the link: http://www.abrn.com/abrn/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=196423

[Cees Klumper]

For what it's worth, here in The Netherlands I don't think measures like that will be coming in anytime soon.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Chad]

I once painted an MGA.  Remember debating on compressor, HPLV air gun, sanding, respirator, preparation etc etc etc.  
Wish they had refused to sell me the automotive paint for it, and all of the other equipment... The endless wet sanding, endless, endless.  And the hideous results I got doing that car should be banned.  Never again, leave it to the professionals. But not everyone has ten thumbs like me.

Besides EPA reasons it seems to me that the health reasons, namely pulmonary, are probably reason enough to keep this type of project out of my hands, or am I missing the point of this thread?

-CD-
1967 230SL, 113.042 10

[Raymond]

No Chad, you hit the thread right on the centerline.  The amount of chemicals we dump into urban atmosphers is phenominal.  And, paint is frequently a poorly disposed of hazardous waste.  

The EPA is still in the study phase at the moment, but as Chad so directly pointed out, not everyone handles the material like a pro.  Because that can't be regulated, they have to look at limiting the hazards in the source material.  

The market will adjust,too.  Already, Mercedes and other companies, including the CSX railroad, have switched to water-based paints to reduce the environmental impact.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[hauser]

I'm not at all sold on the water based paint that is used by Mercedes.  I own a 1999 ML that has this type of paint and I'm just not impressed.  The problem I'm having is that each time I get a tiny chip in the paint I'll see a tiny rust spot.  I remember reading a post somewhere about it but I can't remember where I saw it.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[ranchomerced]

I don’t know how many Pagoda group types do there own body and paint but this will affect those that do.. And the pocket books of those who don’t.  This regulation is evidently being pushed by the large body shops and union thugs so they can eliminate the small fry competition. My operation will unfortunately be a casualty as I will be forced to comply with these new regulations in order to purchase the small amounts of painting materials we use every year. High tech EPA inspected spray booth; certified technicians; EPA certified equipment etc. Since we only do a few cars a year my pricing for paint work will probably triple or I will be forced to outsource my body and paint work to others that may not have the technical expertise or desire to replicate the high quality of paint work required for a concourse quality restoration. Does anyone know anybody such as a lobbyist, congressman or senator that can help?

[Vince Canepa]

Not all the painting hobbyists do is on the body.  I just finished a large project on my rear axle.  Part of the project was to repaint the rear axle and suspension components.  I would not have been able to use the quality materials I did under these new rules.  As far as health concerns, any intelligent hobbyist can deal with those.

I can see where the shops might be woriied about their competition, but I would like to see how many complaints came from neighbors about some hobbyist in their garage.

The new base color paints and some of the primers are water borne, not water based.  The clear topcoat is solvent borne.  The problem with the newer paints is that they are hard.  They resist scratches much better, but chip easier that theold enamels.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[ranchomerced]

Water based paints, primers, stripping chemicals, filler, anything VOC or capable of being atomized will be included in the ban according to my paint supplier. The motivation for this incidious scheme is the elimination of smaller bodyshops that currently fall "under the radar" of environmental authorities. We as very small shops and hobbiests are just an unintended casualty of this. Remember the large body shops have had to fork over thousands of dollars for high tech paint booths with electrostatic precipitatiors, HVLP spray equiptment, special training for technitions, costly license requirements, they even have to report to the EPA the amount of waste they create every day. Yes, we will have a crisis if this is enacted. I will certainly NOT take my car or a customers car to  Earl Scheib.

[Chad]

You mean most body shops will be going out of business or have to make drastic technological improvements to come into compliance??  This might affect the availability and COST of paintjobs in the future then? This would not be good for vintage automobiles.

Perhaps if you were thinking of freshening up the finish then you might want to accelerate the schedule on that??

Health reaons are very important for the hobbyist, as a physician I believe that not everyone out there is going to do what they should be doing to make it safe in their own garage, so as an intelligent hobbyist I would disagree with you there Vince.  Or perhaps you can better educate me the toxicology of it and how about every hobbyist gets it right the first time safety wise when he paints a car, or perhaps the chemical ingredients of these paints has changed drastically within the last ten years???  Anyway, I would love to learn more.

The government does tend to regulate these industries the wrong way. Surely there is something political behind everything. Perhaps the big three want every wrecked car replaced with a brand new one, and every vintage Mercedes automobile replace with the brand new Hyundai look-alikes you find at the dealers. I don't think that's the case at all, but there are other politically based "health" regulations that I fear are more political than health related... Such as diesel. I would like to buy a 60-70 mpg imported diesel microcar for daily driving, and produce less greenhouse gases than the gassers do, but this government doesn't seem to make importing to the US an attractive business option for the reputable makers out there that produce it.  Anyway, enough with the rant and back to Turkey Day.

Happy T-Day!


-CD-
1967 230SL, 113.042 10

[Chad]

Ranchomerced:  I have this hilarious image of you taking a 300SL coupe into Eal Scheib's.  Perhaps if you asked for Earl himself to paint it?

It may be that the actual spraying part of the paint job, which is certainly not the larger part of the paint job but extremely important nonetheless, will be handled by fewer, more specialixed shops.  And the rest of body specialists would contract with them???  I don't know.

-CD-
1967 230SL, 113.042 10

[George Des]

Suggest that every one interested in this topic visit Len Stuart's autobody site for the real skinny on auot paint at http://www.autobodystore.com/. As several have pointed out, the newer paints are highly toxic--primarily due to the use of polyisocynates as a hardening agent--especially in the urethane and polyurethane paints that are so common today. This hardening agent is what gives the paints their "wet" look and long lasting durability. Although epoxy primers have a hardener as well, typically it is not a polyisocyanate. Polyisocyanates are extremely toxic when in mist form as in spraying. In some people, they can cause asthmatic reactions. For this reason, they are only recommended for spraying using supplied air respirators and HVLP spraying equipment which puts less mist into the air and more paint on the body. The suppied air respirators are not cheap compared to the cartridge type respirators most commonly available. Lens' site will give you all the details you need to know about the dangers of spraying this type of paint w/o the proper type of equipment. All that being said, this paint is not as damaging to the environment as the old lacquer type of paint--nitrocelluslose and acrylic-- which is getting increasing tough to find for exactly that reason. Some may recall that lacquer paint jobs required up to 18-20 coats of paint with laborious sanding and buffing. The manner in which lacquer dires is the real cuprit when it comes to polluting the environment--it dries by evaporation and this is what puts VOCs into the air. In contrast, the urethanes dry by chemeical reaction. This coupled with the fact that these paints require a far fewer number of coats to provide adequate hiding and shine actually makes for a far more environmentally friendly paint system even though they can be far more injurious to the painter if proper precautions are not taken.

As an avid gun owner, this sounds to me alot like the same issue. Because there are a few people who cause problems, either out of ignorance or neglect, let's just regulate paint products to the point that no one except "professionals" can use them. Now that lacquers have been effectively banned, no one except the professional shops will be able to do body work or custom painting. Gone will be the days when "gear heads' and "hot rodders" can pursue their hobby unencumbered by extensive Governement regulation. I'm sure this will offend the real "tree huggers" out there, but coming from Washington and working for the Federal Government, I get to see this type of thing every day. Ever hear of "green bullets"?

George Des

[enochbell]

George, thanks for that great discussion on paint.

Now, call me a cynic, but I think what we will see is the larger paint shops trying to take advantage by supporting regulation that makes it difficult for the indy's to stay competitive.  The big guys will cry all day long about the cost of compliance but, at the end of the day, they will do everything they can to support measures that also drive out competition.  When the issue was greenhouse gas in freon I was all for the regulation, but this one sounds a bit specious to me.  

Just my $.02,

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[ranchomerced]

We must remember the motivation of the people who are pushing this. Chances are the majority of large body shops only want to reduce their competition from the mom and pop shops or in the case of southwest USA; the illegal back yard body shops that are hard to compete with from a price stand point. As is typical; these large corporations couldnt care less about the environment. They are using a government regulatory body via Washington D.C. lobbiests to line their own pockets. I hate to sound so cynical but even the R-12 / ozone depleation debacle was a similar ploy by DuPont to bolster its lock on refrigerants since it held the only patent that was about to expire... and now currently holds the R134 patent I think.... By the way I started out as one of these back yard shops; I have to be honest.

[Raymond]

This issue is different from R-12.  CFC's were everywhere and their effect on the Ozone layer is readily documented by scores of independent studies. The incidence of increased skin cancers and other effects are tracking the predictions.  It was hardly a conspiracy by Dupont.

This issue is about materials that are increasingly hazardous being allowed into the hands of untrained, unwatched individuals.  It is more analagous to pesticides that had to be removed from the market.  If you want to stop the change, argue the science not some dark, political, conspiracy.  

All the Senators and Representatives, have mailing and e-mail addresses.  I have written to several on aviation issues.  Short, well-reasoned statements about an issue are usually reviewed and replied to.  But first, make sure you know the facts.



Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[Vince Canepa]

Regarding the health issues, my position is not that the paints are not toxic - even the old enamels and laquers were.  My position is that intelligent hobbyists will read the MSDS and manufacturers recommendations and proceed accordingly.

I see this issue more from the HAZMAT perspective than refrigerants.  However, in contrast to what is being proposed HAZMATs are treated differently.  HAZMAT generators are regulated in three steps -  conditionally exempt small quatuity generators, small and large quantity generators.  A small quantity generator can be conditionally exempt based on the limited quanities they generate and I think such a limitation should be considered.  For example, I've shot less than two quarts of urethane in thirteen years.  I fail to see how I am having a measurable impact.

What is happening is that mega body shops are sprouting up around the country. The best painter in SE Virginia works for one.  He does nothing but shoot paint.  He doesn't mix it, do any prep.  All he does is shoot paint all day.  Each task is divided up in this shop.  I was burned by one of these shops.  No one was responsible for anything.  In effect, getting a quarter panel repaired was like dealing with a government agency.  Not fun.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex