Please help me evaluate this SL

[pauhana99]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum but I have been reading it for months. I have learned a lot from everyone's posts. That said, I still have some newbie questions that I would be deeply grateful for some answers/feedback.

I live in Honolulu and have been looking for a driver level 280sl with A/C. After contemplating a number of other marques. I have decided on getting a SL for all the reasons you have all posted on this board: driveability, reliability, relative value compared to 356s, XKE etc... -not to mention this is a beautiful car! Most importantly for me, I live in Honolulu and since I do not intend to do anything but light cosmetic work myself, this is a significant issue.  I could never get consistent and speedy service on a 4.2 jag here. I can, however, on a 280sl There is a Mercedes shop a block away from my office and I have spoken with them. I see several SLs in there often and even the only 300SL roadster I have ever seen in Hawaii.

I just found a 68 280SL here for sale for $24k. It has had two owners and it is a Euro car. I just inspected it myself this afternoon and drove it. I'm not a pro, but I would put the car at a -3. While the car has only 76,000 miles (123k KM) it was repainted in the last two years. The repaint is not that good and the shop that did it had some overspray in places like rubber trim and under-components. (pics attached)

I inspected the soft top and while the canvas is in pretty good shape, we could not close the back portion of the top. Perhaps it needs to be aligned?

The interior is worn, as it should be with a car this old. The wood on the upper dash is without varnish and slightly warped in a couple of places. The interior chrome appears nice, just needs to be detailed. The steering wheel is obviously not correct, not sure why. It is owned by an 80 year old woman who is the second owner of the car. She had it 34 years. The car appears to be maintained but not by a mercedes shop I think.

I am most impressed with how well the car drove. While the tach bounced at idle, it was obvioiusly just the guage. The car pulled well and shifted very smoothly (automatic) I was very surprised. The suspension was also very nice and surprisingly firm. The car drove straight and did not pull under breaking or acceleration.

I guess what bothers me most about this car is the re-paint. As you can see from the pictures, the gaps appear to be o.k. -except for the hood -where the gap in front seems too large. It could be it was not aligned properly after the painting? I could find no signs of rust anywhere except two places: a tiny bit around the wiper blade and a tiny bit in the rear at the seam edge beneath of the bumper. (pics attached)

-Can A/C be added to the 68SL?

-The wheels are not correct. They appear to be the cast wheels from a sedan? I don't care for the way they look. Are original wheels or repo's readily available? It bothers me that the wheels were changed.

-It is unclear if any engine or tranny work has been done, but the guys showing me the car claims the woman has receipts for $11k in work the past 24 months and I doubt the paint job it has could have been much. I will find out.

-What else should I be looking for? I'm concerned the repaint is hiding rust, but I couldn't see any indicators -but I am not a pro.

 

Mahalo to everyone who is able and willing to help this new prospective SL owner!

I'm going to take some pictures this afternoon and I will post them.

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[rhersberger]

My 68 280 SL has A/C.  I think all A/Cs for this model are "after market" and the vents are installed under the dash.

Junk yards sometimes have wheels. Also, check our list of suppliers on this home page: click "LINKS". Correct hub caps are available, but you will have to get them painted.



Rod Hersberger

Santa Barbara

'68 280 SL, red, tan, 4sp, two tops
'01 Jag S Type brg
'07 Cayman S Carmona red, sand beige

[Douglas]

That rust on the bottom of the tail panel concerns me. If the car was painted fairly recently, this would imply to me that the paint job was done to hide -- rather than eliminate -- rust.

I'd certainly examine the inner fenders by opening the hood and running my hand (carefully) along the lip of the inner perimeter of the engine bay. My guess is it's rusty in there as well.

Also, did you lift up the trunk mat? These are all classic areas to examine.

Finally, I'd purchase a magnet that measures metal thickness to look for filler. I've got one that's called a "Spot Rot" detector and find it invaluable when looking at old cars. (I bought it on ebay a few years ago, but I think JC Whitney sells something similar.)

On a more positive note about this particular vehicle, i was interested to see the tail panel up close. Clearly, it has a reinforced panel for a boat hitch. There's a piece of metal welded between the outer skin and the fuel tank. I've never seen that. I wonder whether that's a factory job and what option code is indicated, if any, on its data card?

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[pauhana99]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

That rust on the bottom of the tail panel concerns me. If the car was painted fairly recently, this would imply to me that the paint job was done to hide -- rather than eliminate -- rust.

I'd certainly examine the inner fenders by opening the hood and running my hand (carefully) along the lip of the inner perimeter of the engine bay. My guess is it's rusty in there as well.

Also, did you lift up the trunk mat? These are all classic areas to examine.

Finally, I'd purchase a magnet that measures metal thickness to look for filler. I've got one that's called a "Spot Rot" detector and find it invaluable when looking at old cars. (I bought it on ebay a few years ago, but I think JC Whitney sells something similar.)

On a more positive note about this particular vehicle, i was interested to see the tail panel up close. Clearly, it has a reinforced panel for a boat hitch. There's a piece of metal welded between the outer skin and the fuel tank. I've never seen that. I wonder whether that's a factory job and what option code is indicated, if any, on its data card?

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

Hey thanks for the feedback!

-I couldn't find any rust inside the engine bay and I looked hard. Inside wheel wheels too are clean -although they are black. I spent a long time with the car this afternoon, only found the rust on the wiper blade surround and that place in the tail.

- I did lift up the trunk mat -just didn't put the picks in. It was very clean in there -but also black so it would hide any rust of course. But it seemed very sharp in the trunk.

- I will ask about the towing hitch, but I agree, there is some sort of reinforcing. I didn't see have screw holes for a possible hitch. Everything looked pretty stock. I don't have the data card, but can I get one with the VIN online?

I'm beging to loose some excitement about the car. The guy selling the car for the old lady told me the $11k was for painting and such. Hard to beleive given the overspray everywhere. Also, lots of regular service done at very close intervals. -Three spark changes within 6k miles. I don't doubt this lady took care of the car, but I don't think she knew what her mechanics were doing. I think there are too many questions that can't be answered.

Anyone have any other thoughts?

[Douglas]

Check out this site for an excellent buyer's guide with a clear diagram of areas to check on a Pagoda SL:

http://silverstarrestorations.com/113SL.htm

For what it's worth, that does not look like a $24K Pagoda SL to me.



Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[waqas]

I concur with Douglas-- you can do better with $24k. The link he sent is a great resource. Look for the 'notches' around the headlights, and the spot-welds along the inner front fender edges. (see link for more details)

One area that concerns me in particular is the rear lower panel: it looks very uneven, and I'll bet is full of bondo. That reinforcement may have been an attempt at a hitch, but also to possibly shore up a crumbling lower rear panel. I would place it on a lift and inspect underneath the entire car.

Also, the hood gaps look wrong, but this could just be a bad placement after removal for engine work.

The $11k bill might have been someone trying to rip off an 80yr old lady. That paint job leaves much to be desired at such a price. It could also have been in an accident (rear-ended?). Get more details from the shop where the work was done.

Hope this helps,

WAQAS in Austin, Texas

[Cees Klumper]

That lower rear (non-structural) panel is notorious for rusting - I am getting mine replaced sometime in the coming week or two with a $200 repair panel and she'll be as good as new again. After double-checking for rust as well as the more serious mechanicals (engine compression, leak-down test, brakes, suspension and steering parts wear, etc), you can just bid what you feel the car is worth: maybe you will want to get it repainted, which should not cost another $10K, replace the rims (just as an example, correct MB, profesionally repainted bundt cake alloy sets are available for a couple hundred dollars here in Germany all the time) and the steering wheel, and do the rest (carpet, interior?) as you go along, over the coming years.
Who knows the seller may take $15K and you could end up with many years of sunshine fun!

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Shvegel]

Keep in mind that when you import a car into the us you have to replace the Km speedometer with a miles per hour unit. That means that the vehicle starts over at zero. It may have more miles than it shows.

[Douglas]

quote:Originally posted by Shvegel

Keep in mind that when you import a car into the us you have to replace the Km speedometer with a miles per hour unit. That means that the vehicle starts over at zero. It may have more miles than it shows.

I think that in theory you're correct about converting to MPH, but I think that's hardly ever enforced. I almost never see European Pagodas in the US with US speedometers. (I know my first SL still had its European speedometer in it.)

As for the true miles on the car, there are two golden rules:

Rule #1: Don't believe claimed mileage unless you've got substantial paperwork to back it up.

Rule #2: Mileage doesn't really matter. It's all about condition. Low mileage, in and of itself, is a reason to buy a '99 Lexus, not a Pagoda.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[Benjegen]

You should remove the outer rocker panels. This may be some work, however it is worth it in order to estimate the real value of the car. If you find serious rust here you should not buy the car for this price.
In addition: You may want to poke around under the car with a screwdriver to see if it is solid.

Ben

[rwmastel]

The steering wheel is from a 1970's MB sedan.
The heater/vent controls are missing.
Radio antenna missing?
Aftermarket non-locking gas cap.

Show more pictures and I'm sure more people will find flaws.  We know shortcuts when we see them!

What's with the "replacement for US VIN" plate under the windshield.  I've not seen one of those before.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[glennard]

Hooray!  Just doubled the value of my 230.  I will personally deliver it for $19,999.  And pay for my ticket to Vegas.

[Klaus]

Rodd,
the car was a non-US version and was imported to the US under gray-market rules. These mandate that the importer brings the car into compliance with US regulations (FMVSS - Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Syandards, and EPA or CARB - California Air Resources Board). The Type Plate shows that such an effort was made. The FMVSS 115 was only introduced in 1980 and showing the VIN under the windshield is not required on a W113, so the importer did go overboard in this case.
The steering wheel was also used on the R 107.

Klaus
1969 280 SL

[TheEngineer]

I'm repeating what I have heard many times before: It will cost you much more than you think to restore the car. During restoration you'll find many more things that need attention. You are much better off to find a car in pristine condition and pay more. Even then you'll find things that need repair/replace.

[jsaylor]

Aloha,

Welcome to this great group.

I'm on Kauai w/ a '65 230SL.

Email me and I'll give you a phone number and we can talk.

These cars have rust issues and as you know rust and Hawaii go hand in hand.



Jim Saylor
Kauai, Hawaii
'65 230SL

[jsaylor]

Pau Hana,

Forgot my Email address.

jsaylor@aloha.net

Jim Saylor
Kauai, Hawaii
'65 230SL

[pauhana99]

Thanks to everyone who responded! It was very helpful. Based on your info, I decided not to pursue this car. I didn't even want to go to the step of a formal inspection on a lift as there were just too many unknowns about this car. That said, I think maybe valuations are rising faster than the pro's (you guys) perception of the market. I have looked at several Pagoda's on the mainland and I have yet to see a $20k car that I would want to touch, this was the cheapest car I have seen in this condition -although there were all of the issues I brought up. I'm certainly willing to pay more for a completed car, but not 60k. I have been seeing lots of 60-80k cars that everyone says are actuall #3 condition. Where are the $35k #2s? I don't think they exist any more. Maybe 2 years ago, but not today. I would like to find a high number 3 or a low #2 and not spend more than $40-45k. I'm begining to think this is not possible any longer as prices have risen over 20%  in 2006 according to SCM latest price guide.

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by pauhana99

I would like to find a high number 3 or a low #2 and not spend more than $40-45k. I'm begining to think this is not possible any longer as prices have risen over 20%  in 2006 according to SCM latest price guide.

Subscribe to the SL Market Letter (Google it).

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Douglas]

quote:Originally posted by pauhana99

Where are the $35k #2s? I don't think they exist any more.

Bingo. I think you're exactly right about that.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA