Is this FI Pump for a W113 280?

[jameshoward]

Continuing my search to get my fuel injection pump sorted I have come across this pump:

PES6KL 70B120 R24W at a local parts dealer.

Am I correct in assuming that this is for a 280SL and is therefore of no use to someone with a 230SL?

If it's a 280 pump and no good to me let me know if you're interested. An early answer would be most helpful as I don't know how long it will be around.

JH

[hands_aus]

James
The 230sl injection pumps are self contained for lubrication with their own oil reservoir.
The 280sl injection pumps use the engine oil and have a return hole back into the block which the 230sl engines do not have.
I can't tell you that the 230sl engine can't be modified to fit the later pump because I don't know, yet someone will know.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[jameshoward]

Hi Bob,

Whilst the 230 pump does have a resevoir, all pumps have an oil line (the 230 has one, perhaps others have more) to the engine albeit that the newer ones, as I understand it, are lubricated in a different way.

I just need to know, though, whether this pump model is for a 280. I know there is a page, in the BBB I think, that lists the pump models, but I don't have mine with me. Or perhaps its a separate document that I've dug up along the way.

JH

[jameshoward]

Need to close on this today as he has an offer - no one knows whether this is for a 113?

Could it be a 107 part instead?

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by jameshoward

Need to close on this today as he has an offer - no one knows whether this is for a 113?

Could it be a 107 part instead?

Not a 107 part, those were electronic fuel injection.

Just Google your part number.  I google'd PES6KL and found some threads.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[jameshoward]

Hi Rodd,

Me too. It's just inconclusive with the R24 bit, whatever that designation means. I don't want to buy a pump that's no good to anyone, not just me!

For the life of me I just CANNOT remember where the list of FI pumps compatible with the 113 is. I could swear it's in my BBB (which is about 1000 away) but who knows. I recall the list as it states quite clearly that there is only one pump for the 230L a few more for the 250 and a bunch for the 280.

JH

[jameshoward]

OK - it seems its from a Type 111 280SE. I therefore assume that won't fit a 113 2.8l engine and so therefore is no good for anyone here, It's also probably why the pump is about $100.

[rwmastel]

Better safe than sorry.  You can probably get a 280 fuel pump in some condition from a member here.

Cees, you've already contributed to James' cause, have any fuel injection pumps in that mini-garage?

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[jameshoward]

Rodd,

To save Cees a post, he has indeed been wonderful and has a few up his sleeve for a rainy day. I'm not there yet (...quite yet) but this one just looked exactly like my FI pump so I thought about taking a hit for the team and pick it up to pass it on.  

Thanks anyway.

Incidentally, I also had a call from a part dealer in the UK where I am at present who has 'found me' some Euro headlights (something else I'm chasing at a sensible cost) and who tells me that they will fit my car even though they're not off a convertible.

Hmmm. Think I'll pass on those too, just in case.

[ja17]

Hello James,

The R24W injection pump is the latest version injection pump for the euro 280 SE,SL series engines. It was refined to meet the European (Sweeden) exhaust emission control regulations. The pump runs  a bit leaner at the bottom partial load range.  These changes are basically insignificant and the pump should work just fine on any 280SE,SL engine.

I suspect that this pump could be adjusted leaner to work fine on a smaller displacement engine 230, 250 series. Some of the plumbing could be a bit different on the 230's but not impossible.

I have swapped 250 and 280 series pumps and have adjusted them to work just fine. The 230 swap would be a interesting project.

Would be worth picking it up if the price were right.

As far as lubrication, if you use the later lubrication tube and install it it will function as a engine lubricated version just fine.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by ja17

As far as lubrication, if you use the later lubrication tube and install it it will function as a engine lubricated version just fine.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

Hey Joe
How does the oil return to the engine? Or does it not return and just get burnt up in the cylinders?

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[n/a]

jameshoward

This pump should bolt up to the 230 engine.  I make a similar swap using a pump from a 250 engine on a 230 engine.  I used the plumbing from the 250 engine as there are some differences in the plumbing for the fuel inlet and return lines.  I don't remember if the oil line is the same or not.  If you do make the swap, it would be helpful to get the plumbing from the same or similar car that the pump came from.

There are also a few other things to consider when fitting a used pump.  I consider any used pump to be good as a core for rebuilding only.  This is especially true if any of the attached parts (aneroid compensator, warm running device or the solenoid (s) on the back of the pump) are missing or have been tampered with.  These parts may look the same, but there are differences from one model to another.  Trying to change parts from one pump to another is just asking for trouble unless you have the equipment and expertise to properly calibrate them.  

Also, pumps that have been off the car for any length of time will most likely be seized up.  This can be corrected, but will require some careful massaging of the various systems in the pump to make sure that everything is working smoothly.  I have a friend who spent 4 days changing out a pump only to find out that it was defective and had to do the same changeout over again.  

The surest way to make sure you have a good reliable pump is to have it rebuilt by a REPUTABLE rebuilder.  A search of this or other websites should yield one or more acceptable candidates.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.  Let us know how it turns out.

Iverson

[ja17]

Hello Bob,
On the self contained lubricated pumps the oil line merely supplies oil to the injection plunger cyliners. Clearances here are in millionths of an inch and the oil creates a seal like a piston ring does in an engine cylinder. So it's function is to seal and lubricate. The clearances are so tight that virtually no or very little oil actually mixes with the fuel.

Download Attachment: injection pump drive end information.JPG
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On the injection pumps which circulate engine oil, the oil enters the injection pump in a different location and after sealing and lubricating the injection pummp,  the engine oil ends up in the crankcase of the injection pump then gravity drains through a hole in the end of the pump and back into the engine block then into the oil pan.


Download Attachment: injection pump comparison.JPG
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Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[hands_aus]

quote:
On the injection pumps which circulate engine oil, the oil enters the injection pump in a different location and after sealing and lubricating the injection pummp,  the engine oil ends up in the crankcase of the injection pump then gravity drains through a hole in the end of the pump and back into the engine block then into the oil pan.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

Hey Joe,
Is there a return hole in the 230 and 250sls engine block like in the 280sl?
If not, how do you get the 280sl injection pump oil to flow back to the engine block?
I have never seen the engine block with the Inj pump removed so is the engine block 'open/exposed?' to allow the oil to return?
Is the spline end of the inj pump immersed/sprayed/covered? in engine oil during operation?
Just trying to understand.
cheers

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[jameshoward]

Bob,

Pending Joe's accurate explanation, when I took the FI pump off my 230 there is an oil line that allows to circulate between the engine block and the the FI pump. If you look closely at your pump (I think the line's at the front on the inside of the pump) you'll see it. I've read Joe's post below about what the oil does that is supplied by the line and I think I'm getting there on how it works.

The spline where the pump takes its drive from the engine wasn't very oily. There's a collar that fits over the pump drive and joins it to the drive taken from the engine. It didn't look like it had oil flowing over it continiously.

I'll take some photos when I finally get around to putting my FI pump back on again next Sunday.

JH

[ja17]

Hello Bob,

The block is basically open where the pump attaches so the oil just drains back down into the pan. The spline coupling is not a wear area, just a connection. It gets some oil splash from timing gears and sprockets.

This system gets its "roots" from the 300SL engine.  Also a mechanical fuel injection pump, being an early system it has a self contained oil supply also. The pump is remotely located on the block and a short driveshaft runs from the block to the injection pump! The fuel injection lines run directly from the pump to the block. The injectors are in the block and spray directly in the combustion chambers! Timing is critical on these,  a precise "drip timing" method is used like on a diesel.  End result 285 Horses out of that six cylinder.



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by ja17

Hello Bob,

The block is basically open where the pump attaches so the oil just drains back down into the pan. The spline coupling is not a wear area, just a connection. It gets some oil splash from timing gears and sprockets.

This system gets its "roots" from the 300SL engine.  Also a mechanical fuel injection pump, being an early system it has a self contained oil supply also. The pump is remotely located on the block and a short driveshaft runs from the block to the injection pump! The fuel injection lines run directly from the pump to the block. The injectors are in the block and spray directly in the combustion chambers! Timing is critical on these,  a precise "drip timing" method is used like on a diesel.  End result 285 Horses out of that six cylinder.



Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

Hello James and Joe,
Thanks for the explanation.
The pics of the engine will be welcome.
I now understand how it works.
I have wondered about it for ages because one day I think I will need to have my 'early' 250sl Injection pump replaced because the check valves leak back.

As it is now I have to 'prime' my cold engine for about 1 minute after letting the car sit for a week. Hot engine is ok.

I think I have seen a 300sl injection pump and if I recall correctly the Inj pump drive shaft was chromed on the car.

cheers

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto