Author Topic: those ol' csv blues (long)  (Read 6759 times)

Joe

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those ol' csv blues (long)
« on: October 20, 2003, 09:51:09 »
(Edited 11/11/03)
I found why my gas mileage is so lousy and why it is impossible to lean the mixture enough at idle. The CSV was leaking terribly. I took off the solenoid and gas would run (not drip) out of the hole when the key was on.
(I found later that the fuel tank vent pipe was clogged, and the immense pressure build up on a hot day was forcing fuel past the csv valve.)
I’ll relate my experience in fixing this; perhaps it will save a few hours or dollars for another list member.
The CSV (on my 1965 Euro) has five connections. There is a 12V wire going to the solenoid, often called an “electric magnet.” There is a ground wire (yellow) going to the top solenoid securing screw. There is a fuel line entering from the front. From the rear is a larger pipe, carrying air. Finally, the CSV is connected to the intake manifold.
The fuel line connects to a fitting that, in turn, is screwed into the body of the CSV. This fitting contains a screen (filter), and holds a coil spring that acts to hold the “valve” closed, preventing (hopefully) the flow of fuel into the valve when the solenoid is inactive. Within the CSV is a brass tube that contains a loose-fitting piston-like brass piece (“valve”) with a lip around it. This valve slides in the brass tube while the lip presses against the end of the brass tube, thus sealing off the fuel. The spring presses against the valve, holding it against the tube.
Directly opposed to the valve is a plunger which is part of the solenoid. When electricity is applied to the solenoid, this plunger shoots out and pushes the valve open, against the spring. When the piston is open, fuel flows into the brass tube, is atomized by the air coming in through the air pipe, and then sprayed into the intake manifold. The longer the solenoid is open, the more the fuel that enters to enhance starting. This time is governed by a relay that controls how long the 12V is to be delivered.
It is pretty simple to take apart the CSV and the chances of ruining or damaging the unit are not very great. First, remove the wires to the solenoid and remove the solenoid. I suggest putting the small screw back into the solenoid (12V screw) so it doesn’t get lost. There should be an o-ring between the solenoid and the CSV.
Then loosen the air pipe with a 19mm wrench. Do not bend the air pipe! Then loosen the fuel pipe with a 17mm wrench. It is ok to slightly bend the fuel pipe, because it is flexible enough to bend back by hand. Next loosen the fitting between the fuel pipe and the CSV with a 19mm wrench. Do not remove this fitting at this time.
Now remove the CSV using a 5mm Allen hex wrench. A ball-end hex socket works well, but all can be removed with just a regular “L” shaped Allen wrench. Now the CSV can be removed. Again, do not bend the air pipe. It should just fall off when you remove the CSV.
There will be an o-ring between the CSV and the intake manifold. Be sure you don’t let it fall and get lost.
Remove the fitting and clean it out. Carburetor cleaner in a can with a spray tube works very well. Be sure when you remove the fitting that the spring does not go flying.
Now the valve is exposed and can be removed.
It is not possible to look at the valve and the brass tube in which it rides and determine how good the seal is, but if the thing leaks, the seal is not good enough. What you want to do is to lap the two pieces together so they mate perfectly. Any auto parts store will sell you a tube of valve grinding compound for a couple of bucks or euros. This is like toothpaste, a sort of liquid sandpaper. It contains grit suspended in an oil and when parts are rubbed together with this paste between them, a slight amount of material will be removed.
Put a little compound on the valve where it contacts the brass tube. Put the valve back in place and turn it a few times to remove a slight amount of metal from both pieces. I chucked up the valve in my electric drill and turned it that way for a few seconds.
Clean up all parts with the spray carburetor cleaner. The valve grinding compound washes away very easily, but be sure the valve moves easily in the tube.
Reassemble the spring and its holder. Its probably a good idea to slightly stretch the spring to re-establish its tension. Attach the fuel line, but do not mount the CSV onto the manifold. At this time, you can observe the operation of the valve and see if you have stopped the leak. Turn on the ignition key but do not start the car. Full fuel pressure is now being delivered to the brass valve. Push down from the solenoid hole with a nail or something similar to open the valve, and then release it. Fuel should gush out when the valve is depressed and then stop completely when it is released.
Reattach the CSV to the intake manifold with the three Allen screws. Reattach the air pipe and fuel pipe and fitting. Tighten all connections, but not too tight (you're screwing into aluminum with large wrenches). Be absolutely sure you don’t cross-thread anything.
Test the solenoid before reinstalling. Clamp it to metal to ground it (I used a small pair of vise grips to hold it on the throttle shaft plate) and then, holding a wire to the positive battery terminal, touch the other end to the 12V screw. The rod should extend about 3/16 inch.
Remount the solenoid.
To see if all is working well, remove the 7mm screw in the side of the CSV and see if gas comes out when the ignition is turned on and then stops.





« Last Edit: November 11, 2003, 10:00:44 by Joe »

LFrank

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2003, 13:11:24 »
So how is the mileage now? And how bad was it?? (I had been getting bad mileage - and noticing a fuel smell - so I popped the hood and found a fuel line rupture: a fine spray in the direction of the distributor cap![:0])

LFrank
Washington DC
65 230 sl - auto
DB334/Hellblau

Joe

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2003, 13:42:06 »
I just got the car running and have never checked the gas mileage. I did watch the gas gauge go from 4/4 to 2/4 in less than 40 miles, though. That told me the car had a serious problem.
After fixing the CSV, I changed the oil and drained about 8 quarts. Effective way to clean one's cylinder walls and bearings, but not recommended.
Joe

graphic66

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2003, 07:29:17 »
You might want to do a compression check if you find your CSV not working properly as the extra fuel washes the lube off of the cylinder walls and wears the rings. This is also a great incentive to check the CSV at least once a year to check its operation and also keep an eye on your fuel mileage. My CSV was defective when i purchased my car and as a result the compression is down to 100 psi in all of the cylinders, the good news is that the lower end probably is still tight and I may only need rings and head work.

Benz Dr.

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2003, 19:21:53 »
Hi all,
 if you remove the solenoid fuel will pour out so that's not a good test. There's a small check screw on the side for doing a leakage test - maybe that's what we're talking about.
 The atomizer inside the manifold on the CSV doesn't mix with any air from the pipe going to the injection pump. The air running through this pipe is dry air and has no fuel in it nor does it mix with any fuel at any time.
When the CSV opens it just sprays fuel into the intake manifold and air from the injection pump cold start regulator via the above mentioned pipe enters near or around the atomizer. Since it only sprays for a few seconds the actual CSV has two separate functions.
1) sprays finely atomized fuel into the manifold to start engine and increase RPM  there by bringing injection pump up to operating pressure which makes the regular injectors start to work.
2) aids in the delivery of auxillary air while the engine warms via the pipe running around the back of the engine.

 If you have really low compression ( 100PSI which is barely enough to start an engine ) you just can't do the head and rings - you need to do the whole thing. And why not , you will have it all apart anyway. I can almost predict that the bottom end will fly apart if you don't if it's been running a long time in this condition and the oil pressure is low from excessive bearing wear.

Dan c

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Joe

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2003, 19:53:38 »
Thanks for the clarification, Dan. I don't understand why fuel comes out when the solenoid is off, though. Isn't the valve's function to hold the fuel back when the solenoid is off?
Joe

graphic66

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2003, 08:58:45 »
Good advice on the bottom end, sometimes I need some more logical input, a complete rebuild is on the way. The 230 SL runs very strong with the low compression and suprises me, it starts easily and goes quite fast, top speed about 118mph 0 to 60 about 12 seconds with the automatic, maybee I need to check my compression gauge however when I squirt oil in the cylinders and recheck it goes right to 150psi indicating worn rings. The car idles perfect and pins the oil pressure gauge immediatly when starting and stays there. Running temp is normal except when it idles for a long time it comes up some but not dangerously hot. I am looking forward to the engine work and the performance increase after. Thank you for your advice Dr.

Benz Dr.

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2003, 12:09:12 »
I think maybe fuel is present at all times and the solenoid opens the valve so it can go to the atomizer. I've seen where fuel will leak right through the solenoid and you need a seal under it so it won't leak out , so that seems to make sense.
Either that or yours is leaking. Remove the test plug and see if anything drips out. You're allowed up to 3 drops per minuet but I think it can go higher than that without idle problems - maybe 5 ?

Dan c

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Joe

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2003, 13:05:43 »
Dan, if you remove the solenoid and look into the hole it exposes, you are looking directly at the end of the valve thing (which I called a "piston"). If this valve leaks, the gas has no place to go except around it and into this open area you are viewing. Yes, this valve is "allowed" to leak. The BBB has a picture of a device used to measure the amount one leaks in a minute.
Mine started to leak again last night, badly. I just plugged it off. It seems a simple thing to reseat this valve, but in my case, it is just not working. Maybe now that I have "depressurized" my gas tank, it will work.
Joe

George Davis

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Re: those ol' csv blues (long)
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2003, 11:37:20 »
Joe, my CSV was stuck (actually, both the valve and the solenoid were stuck) when I got the car.  After disassembling, I lightly reamed out the valve bore with a roll of emery cloth soaked in WD-40, just enough to get free movement of the valve.  It has worked fine and is leak-free since doing that.  I'm surprised that yours seems to be sticking open after you lapped it, but light reaming might be worth trying.  I seem to recall that I also lightly rounded off the sharp shoulders on the four straight "guide vanes (?)" on the side of valve.

A little oil or WD-40 at the solenoid shaft o-ring seal might be worthwhile, too.  That's all it took to free up the stuck solenoid.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual