Author Topic: Where are the best values today?  (Read 9824 times)

Douglas

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Where are the best values today?
« on: July 20, 2005, 10:38:01 »
It seems like there are a lot of lurkers here who are looking to make the leap to ownership at some point, so I thought this was worthy of a thread to start.

I think prospective owners could benefit from the insight of current owners on this.

Values are clearly on the rise, but this only raises the question of which particular varieties of W 113 are comparatively undervalued.

In other words, if you were in the market today and were looking for real bang for your buck, what would you be looking for and where would you be looking?


Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
« Last Edit: July 20, 2005, 10:46:29 by Douglas »

Kenneth Gear

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2005, 14:30:29 »
I haven't noticed a significant range in pricing between 230's, 250's and 280 SL's.  Am I missing something or did I just misunderstand the question?

I have always assumed a 230sl and a 280sl is similar condition will bring roughly the same price.



Ken G
1971 280 SL
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Ken G
1971 280 SL Silver/red

waltklatt

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2005, 15:47:24 »
Also the location where the car is being sold makes a difference too.
Walter

n/a

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2005, 20:30:06 »
this is a great topic.  i'm one of these prospective owners and it is difficult to be able to gauge a quality car and an honest seller all the time.  from the little about the cars i have already learned from the people in this group i was already able to tell that a car had front end work done despite the owner telling me otherwise.  it would be helpful to me to get info from the owners of certain simple things you can look at when eyeballing a car for the first time to weed out the undesirables quickly, then be able to take the better ones to a mechanic and body person who know how to examine the car in detail.  also, would it be possible for a list to be created having the names of good mechanics in everyones local area so that if a car goes up for sale, a prospective buyer will know where to take it to be checked?
thanks,
scott

Douglas

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2005, 20:47:05 »
Scott,

I always refer people to the following link from a well-known restorer:

http://silverstarrestorations.com/113SL.htm

I think you'll find helpful people in this forum just about anywhere in the country if you find any interesting prospects that are too far away for you to inspect easily.

Keep us posted on your progress. Many people here who are now happy owners started out in this forum as lurkers.

I'd like to also add that I believe 230 SL and 250 SL values are distinctly lower than 280 SL values right now, though in my opinion, unjustifiably. For whatever the reason, more people at the moment seem to have "280" on the brain. This is what I'm hearing from people in the business of selling these cars too.

WIth this in mind, I've got to say that the better values are in the earlier cars right now.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
« Last Edit: July 20, 2005, 20:47:57 by Douglas »

n/a

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 12:39:57 »
thanks for the info, doug.  i would have figured that the 250 sl would be more expensive because much fewer were made.  the only reason i like the 280sl is that they had headrests. i drove in a 250sl once but i could imagine my neck snapping if i got into an accident, and would rather keep the car as original as possible and not put headrests on if they were not original to the car. i will certainly update you on my progress and look forward to someday meeting the new york members in person.
scott

Douglas

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2005, 15:17:14 »
Don't count out ebay either. From time to time, nice examples do come up at fair prices. Generally, the better ones are being sold by individuals and not the dealers who are always on that site.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

n/a

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2005, 21:53:27 »
Douglas

I believe the best bang for the buck is a 250 SL.  I am sure not everyone will agree with me but here is my reasoning.  
The 250 (especially the early 250's)is a transition model with much of the charm of the 230, some changes that improved the car, but without the government mandated pollution controls that I think ruined the later cars.        
The 230 is the simplest of the 3 with fewer add ons (side markers, bumper overriders, extra dash buttons etc.), consequently it is the most attractive.
The 230 is more likely to have a full leather interior, chrome plated brass trim and a simpler dashboard-all definite plusses.
The engines became larger as it transitioned from 2300 cc to 2500 cc to 280 cc, but the horsepower remained about the same as the later models were detuned - mostly to meet increasingly stringent government regulations.  

Starting with the 250 these improvements were incorporated:
The front brake rotors were larger
Rear brakes were converted from drum to disc brakes
The manual transmission had better, more evenly spaced gear ratios
The radiator is wider by about 2 inches
The crankshaft has more main bearings
The crankshaft stroke was increased, giving better torque
The improved R18 fuel injection pump was introduced.  I am not sure the later pumps were an improvement.  
An oil cooler was installed on the engine
A viscous fan was installed on the engine
The seat was improved
More cars came with tinted/shaded windshields and windows

I am not sure but I suspect that more of the later cars came with automatic transmissions, air conditioning, power steering and power brakes.  The ac, ps and pb were improvements.  I am not as sure about the automatic transmissions.  Rowing through the gears is half the fun of driving a car like the 113.

The later cars seem to suffer from efforts to reduce production costs.  

This is just a partial list of the running changes made from 63 to 71.  Maybe someone else would like to add to the list.

Any way good luck on your search for the perfect car.  Any one you may choose will be a joy to own.  Mostly it is a matter of what your individual preferances are and what you can find at the time you choose to buy.

Good luck

Iverson
 



Douglas

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 22:06:46 »
Thank you for your reply. I like the early 250 SLs as well and like many of the features you do.

I'd like to mention that I am NOT in the market for an SL. I was merely trying to stimulate conversation by starting a thread.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

hauser

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2005, 22:51:45 »
Websites such as Silver Star and Roy Spencer's Our SL are great tools for those in search of a 113.  It gives the potential buyer more of an edge to know what to look for and what to stay away from.

As for the earlier models I too like some of the features and finishing touches that some of the later cars lack.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

A Dalton

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2005, 08:51:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by Douglas

Thank you for your reply. I like the early 250 SLs as well and like many of the features you do.

I'd like to mention that I am NOT in the market for an SL. I was merely trying to stimulate conversation by starting a thread.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220



 I have owned 113 cars for 35 years and have had them all at one time or another..
 Preference is in the Mind of the Owners and they are all nice cars.
 My preference is early .043 , Euro with stick and once I finally found that special one , that was the Keeper for me. I can not say I did not enjoy the others nor would that have been my favoite choice when I was new to 113s.
I think the more one works and drives these cars , the more the earlier chassis win his favor. My vote is these are the best of breed and the best car for the buck.  
The 280 wins the $$$ contest, hands down.. but I do not consider current values in my chassis preference.
 Buy what YOU like , cuz you have to live with it..
 ..and for the new buyer , a real consideration should be the tranny.. if you are an auto guy or a stick guy, don't think of buying the other type with the thoughts that you can live with it..you will kick yourself  for years to come . Pass it and look for the correct one , correct meaning correct for YOU.. not the next guy.

 

benzportland

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2007, 21:52:05 »
I just purchased my first 113, a 1965 230sl manual.  Restored, lots of original parts including manuals, tools, fog lamps.  Fresh paint on dashboard, although the chrome on the dash could use replace/refinish around the vent controls.  Everything works, no rust, new signal red paint and new black interior, 90k miles, 17,500.  I consider it a good deal, many thousand less than any similar 280sl I have seen out there.  I've never driven one (I know that sounds crazy but I never test drove my first new MB either) but I have heard the early 230's are a sportier ride than the 280 automatics.  So perhaps this helps give some idea on prices out there.

hwsteeves

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2007, 22:43:02 »
have found a concourse worthy example 280SL 1970'. the owner is asking 85,000 aud is this in line? have seen others in the market in sydney for up to 100,000 but some for 39,000. are the jumps in price valid?

69280sl

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2007, 22:48:18 »
Douglas said "Keep us posted on your progress. Many people here who are now happy owners started out in this forum as lurkers."

I wonder how many of those happy owners support the group by paying a very nominal amount. About the cost of an oil change. I ask this because of the information that the moderator posted recently showing that only about a third of the "members" are paying. Full membership in this group is the best Mercedes related bargain in the world. In my opinion it is absolutely necessary for anyone who owns or wants to own a Pagoda.

I hope that some of the new folks who have a spate of questions have shown their appreciation for this resource by supporting it.

Gus
68 280sl
Gus

68 280sl, signal red/ beige/black softtop. Car # 1084

cascadia

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2007, 23:27:51 »
I recently had the opportunity to observe the pricing patterns in this topic firsthand.  I sold 2 almost identical Padodas, a 66 230 and a 67 250.  Both cars were DB180 Silver, both cars had black leather and both cars were optioned with the ZF gearbox.  They had both been restored as needed, not concours examples but excellent quality #2 to 2+ condition cars.  The market was the same, eBay, within one month of one another.  The 250 sold for 49, the 230 sold for 46.5.  The 250 had better paperwork but the 230 had original fenders.  If you reduce these prices down to the level of basic driver quality cars without rare options, say 50% to 24,500 and 23,250, the difference equals $1,250 between the two.  At these price levels I think the difference in quality over-rides the difference in nameplates.  At the higher price levels I think the 280 starts to make a difference.  Many people who saw the cars thought they would be worth 10-25K more if they were 280's.  Personally, I'm with Iverson, I think the 250 is the best of both worlds, early styling (better steering wheel, hubcaps, seats, etc) with some of the later mechanical improvements.  My 2 cents.
Bob in Portland
Bob in Portland, Oregon.

seattle_Jerry

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2007, 02:47:53 »
I would agree to get the tranny you want and not live with the other. I bought an Auto but really wanted a stick; but the car was rust free which is a rare option. Likely I'll end up fixing its quirks and selling it to get a 250 stick.

1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C

seattle_Jerry

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2007, 02:59:27 »
Is the question "Where" or "What"? This all seemed to address "What". Where would be USA or Arizona or where ever the best values are...What we really need to know is, "Where are the worst values?", because that is where we should be selling our cars.

1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C

RBYCC

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2007, 07:18:50 »
Two months ago I purchased a 1971 280SL from an EBAY dealer.
The sale price was $40.5K ( My 2006 Corvette C6 + $5K )
Prior to purchase I had the vehicle checked out by MB of Southampton.

Car arrived and it was in #2 - #2+ condition.
Unfortunately no documentation.

I was able through the original title to follow the price progression.

Private seller in MA sold it early this year to a NY dealer for $25K.
This dealer then assigned or sold it to the dealer that I purchased it from.

The dealers did a bare metal respray, new soft top, correct leather interior and carpet, along with tail lights, and front bumpers.

The car failed emissions so I had my local MB dealer ( who has mechanics that worked on the W113's when new ) set it up to factory spec with a tune and changed all fluids and minor ( but cumulative ) parts replacements.
Also learned that at a minimum it had a new cam installed at some point prior to my purchase.

Both MB service departments indicated the vehicle extremely sound mechanically. Only future requirement may be a new gas tank at some point in time due to possible rusting.

Now I'm spending a bit to make it just a little bit better..new USA headlights, rear side markers ( missing ),windshield washer bag, entry light, trunk light, rear bumpers, alloy wheels ( still keeping the hubcap wheel set )and new woods.

Extremely satisfied with my purchase price, considering I traded a depreciating asset for a stable to appreciating asset !

ED A.
1971 280SL
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO
1990 C43 AMG
2003 G55 AMG

Paddy_Crow

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2007, 07:46:11 »
Manual trans was on my wish list, but I'm very happy with the auto trans I bought. I searched all over for a long time. I looked at hundreds of ads, many turned out to be fraudulent when I checked into them. The one I wound up buying was listed on Edmunds. I just stumbled on it, it was the most comprehensive and honest assessment of a car I've ever seen in an ad. I just couldn't pass on the opportunity to snag a W113 with only minor needs for $15K.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch...

peterm

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2007, 07:48:28 »
In regard to emissions- in NY the car is not subject to emissions inspection.  The 10$ inspection fee seems almost gratuitous as its a quick look around and theres no obd to hook up.  Checking the NYS DMV web site cars more than 25 model years old are exempt from emissions inpection, so be wary of the repair shops advice.

RBYCC

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2007, 09:19:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by peterm

In regard to emissions- in NY the car is not subject to emissions inspection.  The 10$ inspection fee seems almost gratuitous as its a quick look around and theres no obd to hook up.  Checking the NYS DMV web site cars more than 25 model years old are exempt from emissions inpection, so be wary of the repair shops advice.



I'm in Delaware and emissions exemption applies only to 1968 and older vehicles.

1969 and newer must meet the standards applicable to the year.
The test is performed with a tailpipe "sniffer".
This must be done at DMV prior to application for title.

1971 HC (PPM) limit is 600 with CO (%)of 6.00

If the vehicle fails you can get an emissions waiver after you show proof of spending $97.00 to correct.

All states are different !

ED A.
1971 280SL
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO
1990 C43 AMG
2003 G55 AMG

Benz Dr.

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2007, 18:23:45 »
I'd just like to sell the one I have here, 1970 280SL.

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1961  190SL
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1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Keshav Sabharwal

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Re: Where are the best values today?
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2007, 06:43:05 »
The Classic Data in Germany which sets prices for 'oldtimers' has the 250 SL valued at the lowest in comparison to the 230 and 280 SL. No explanation as to why, but quite a difference in price.