Author Topic: tire sizes  (Read 17171 times)

nick350

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tire sizes
« on: November 22, 2007, 16:38:22 »
I'll tell you what I'd really find useful..I would like to see via photographs what difference the tire sizes look like. ie. 185 + 195 + 205. It would be amazing if the tyre was changed on the same vehicle...capiche?

mdsalemi

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2007, 19:19:17 »
Nick,

I've had all three on the car, but never the 195's running.  There's little noticable difference between them in terms of size, more on cosmetic appearance such as WW, rub strip, etc.  The 205's on mine rubbed a little on a lock turn and would not fit as a spare.  Others don't have that issue.

Contact me off line I'll send you some photos...

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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Garry

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2007, 23:24:19 »
Hi Nick and Michael.

I have just fitted new 205's to my 280 after having on 185's and got some body rub at the rear which I fixed by inserting 3mm spacers in the rear only.  Fixed the rub problem and does not seem to have affected handling but I feel improves the responsiveness of the steering and gives a softer ride on rough surfaces.

Garry





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69 280SL Manual
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Peter van Es

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2007, 04:41:51 »
Nick,

I'm working on it... http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=WheelsTires.TireSize and scroll down to te bottom of the page.

Peter

Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual. Check out http://bali.esweb.nl for photographs of classic car events and my 1970 280SL.
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 01:25:49 »
I still feel the proper size is 185 HR 14. Michael Salami has them on his 280SL with the proper white wall thetires are made Colker tire company and are reproductions of the Firestone Oe tires of that time peroid our SLs can out . by the way the suspemsion was designed around these early tires called habagirtle not quite a true radial tire at the time. Continial and firestone were the two tires put on our cars. the new revised Colker Firestone radial matches the correct aspect ratio and the stiff side wall give it the orginal handling the car is knowen for.
Bob Geco
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 23:13:13 by Bob G »

hauser

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 02:54:56 »
The problem with tires is that they are all so different.  If your shopping for a certain size don't assume they'll all look the same on your car.

Here's my personal experience.  I had Michelin Rainforce on my car but since they were about six years old I replaced them with Yokohama Avid Touring.  The new tires are too skinny and just plain don't look right or drive well on my car.  BTW 195/75/14 is the size I'm running.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 14:42:51 by hauser »

mdsalemi

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 07:04:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by Bob G

I still feel the proper size is 185 HR 14. Michael Salami has them on his 280SL with the proper white wall thetires are made kolker tire company and are reproductions of the Firestone Oe tires of that time peroid our SLs can out . by the way the suspemsion was designed around these early tires called habagirtle not quite a true radial tire at the time. Continial and firestone were the two tires put on our cars. the new revised Kolker Firestone radial matches the correct aspect ratio and the stiff side wall give it the orginal handling the car is knowen for.
Bob Geco




Not to start another "Tire Nirvana" topic, but for those newer members who were not around when the bulk of that topic was written and contributed to, Bob Geco is correct: the original Firestone Phoenix (and the Conti RA60 as a 2nd source) were designed specifically for the suspension of the W113.  The topic of that tire and the suspension generally get mention in any worthy history of the W113.  The Coker Phoenix reproduction was designed specifically to replace that tire, and was done for the German Old-Timer Mercedes Club.  Yes it is pricy, but no more pricy than many performance tires for modern cars.  And Coker offers a club discount to MBCA members and I'm sure they extend this discount to other clubs as well.

Hauser is 100% correct; the tires all look different on different cars, and they all drive a bit differently, too, because of differences in wear of various steering and suspension parts.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

glennard

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 09:12:31 »
I think I have an original Firestone in the back of the garage.  The 'rub' ridge is about a half round of a 1" dia rubber rod on the extreme outer bulge of the tire.  Forget whether it is inside or outside of the white wall.  Serves the scuff protection function well and has a distinctive look.   Remember 'curb feelers'?

glennard

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 11:56:41 »
Found a 'Firestone Phoenix' with a rub strip 5/8" on the flat and 1/4" rise from the sidewall and outside the white wall.  Looks like the rub rail met the curb many a time.

Longtooth

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2008, 04:12:45 »
Does anybody have experience on their SL with either the rationally priced Michelin Harmony 205/70/SR14 or the Yokahama Avid T4 in that same tire size?

I find the equivalent to my Michelin XVS 205/70/HR14's that I've had on the car since '83 or 84 are Coker's (www.cokertire.com) Michelin XWX 205/70/VR14's at $439 per!!! + $20 per for shipping.  We're talking $2k including mounting and balancing here!!... without a spare (I'll keep my XVS spare that's never been used!)  That's more than I pay for high performance tires on my SL500's.

Hence my question... anybody with experience on their 205/70 SR 14's on the Yokahama Avid T4 or Micheline Harmony... or other suggestions.

fyi... the car sat for 16 or so years in the garage on the current set of XVS's and developed 'flat spots' which was very noticable at creeping speeds --- bump-bump-bump, but the 'flat spots' have apparently disappeared after ~3k of high speed freeway driving (75-85+ mph) in hot weather.... based on my no longer being able to detect the bump-bump at creeping speeds.  Anyway, since these tires have been on the car since '84 they're not over 23 or 24 years old so I'm nervous about continuing driving on them... and one of the front tires developed wear on the outside due to an alignment problem --- so I have to replace it no matter what anyway.  The combination of replacing that tire and nerves on driving with 23-24 year old Michelin's gives me reason to replace all 4 of them.

I like to drive my SL at high speeds on roads that permit it (not lawfully permit it, but otherwise), and agressively on winding or mountain roads, and put no more than 4k-5k per year max on the car.  I can't do this without worrying about one of the tires blowing out on me though with the 23-24 year old XVS's on it now.  



Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 04:36:36 by Longtooth »

bpossel

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2008, 05:07:47 »
Hello Longtooth,

I put a new set of the Yokahama Avid's on my 113 last year, prior to my trip to Blacklick.  They seemed to handle very well :) .  Had great traction with all of the rain we had the 1st day.  Seems like it is getting harder to find white walls in our tire size... :(
Bob

quote:
Originally posted by Longtooth

Does anybody have experience on their SL with either the rationally priced Michelin Harmony 205/70/SR14 or the Yokahama Avid T4 in that same tire size?

I find the equivalent to my Michelin XVS 205/70/HR14's that I've had on the car since '83 or 84 are Coker's (www.cokertire.com) Michelin XWX 205/70/VR14's at $439 per!!! + $20 per for shipping.  We're talking $2k including mounting and balancing here!!... without a spare (I'll keep my XVS spare that's never been used!)  That's more than I pay for high performance tires on my SL500's.

Hence my question... anybody with experience on their 205/70 SR 14's on the Yokahama Avid T4 or Micheline Harmony... or other suggestions.

fyi... the car sat for 16 or so years in the garage on the current set of XVS's and developed 'flat spots' which was very noticable at creeping speeds --- bump-bump-bump, but the 'flat spots' have apparently disappeared after ~3k of high speed freeway driving (75-85+ mph) in hot weather.... based on my no longer being able to detect the bump-bump at creeping speeds.  Anyway, since these tires have been on the car since '84 they're not over 23 or 24 years old so I'm nervous about continuing driving on them... and one of the front tires developed wear on the outside due to an alignment problem --- so I have to replace it no matter what anyway.  The combination of replacing that tire and nerves on driving with 23-24 year old Michelin's gives me reason to replace all 4 of them.

I like to drive my SL at high speeds on roads that permit it (not lawfully permit it, but otherwise), and agressively on winding or mountain roads, and put no more than 4k-5k per year max on the car.  I can't do this without worrying about one of the tires blowing out on me though with the 23-24 year old XVS's on it now.  



Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport



bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 05:10:53 by bpossel »

hauser

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2008, 15:48:55 »
Last summer I replaced my aging Michelin Rain Force tires with a set of Yokohama Avid Touring and was not impressed.  I am running on 195/75/14 which is a pretty close diameter to the original oem tires.  Even though these two brands are of the same size there is a slight difference in width.  The Michelins offered a nicer ride and just plain looked better and gave the car a better looking stance than the Yokos.

The quest for the "right" tire will always be dicussed since manufacturers are always changing their lineup and availability in certain sizes.  I would say that the day will come when our only choice will be an offering from Coker.

As for the Harmony I believe Tom Sargeant has a set on his Tunis Beige car while Mike Salemi is completely satisfied with his Coker tires.  



1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

Raymond

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2008, 21:08:46 »
I have the AVID 205/70 14s on my car and have about 7,000 miles on them.  I think they're great.  70 profile tires are going to ride better.  I find the 75's too stiff.  I want the springs stiff and the tires soft.  They handle the rain very well.  

I too appreciate a winding road.  I took the car down The Dragon's Tail in Tennessee on the way home from Blacklick.  With a full trunk and back seat, and two people in the car, I found them sure-footed and predictable.  The car has a natural understeer that can be corrected with deliberate addition of power.  The Yokohamas handle that very well.   My experience with Michelin XVS on another car was that they started singing well before losing lateral adhesion.  Not so with the Yokohamas that don't squeal until your starting to go.  Another difference is that when the Michelins go, it's sudden.  The Yokohamas  progress into the slide.  

I just put a set of 205/60-15 Bridgestone Potenzas on my BMW and they're quite good. If I needed tires for the Pagoda right now, I would take the Michelin Exalta 205/70 over the Harmony.  They get great reviews in the rain, cornering, and braking.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
Ray
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hauser

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2008, 21:58:09 »
Ray, I believe your tires are different from mine.  I think you have the Avid T4?  The T4 has a more agressive tread than the Avid Touring and much better grip.  

The Michelin tires you mentioned, would you happen to know where I can find them in a 205/70/14?  I went to the Michelin site and the only tires I found in that size were the Harmony and X Radial DT.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

Peter van Es

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2008, 03:55:46 »
There's a lot of information on tire sizes in the Technical Manual: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=WheelsTires.TireSize

One thing you need to be aware of (and I quote):

quote:

With 185/80R14 Tires, the original look and height of the car is retained. Some people believe that it is important to keep the original tire size in the W113 to not destroy its balanced body design. Consider that when Dr. Rudolf Uhlenhaut (responsible for the racing Mercedes, the Silver Arrows) designed the mechanicals of the W113 car, he did it all around these tires. And most of us are not better engineers than Mr. Uhlenhaut.

If the tires - aesthetic matters apart - are changed, the balance of the car's suspension can be affected, and when the W113 was launched in 1963, it was considered as the car with best handling on the market.

As a result many people prefer to stay with the original narrower 185/80R14 tires, now that Michelin, Coker, and Vredesteijn produce tires in this size. Wider tires (especially 195/70R14 and 205/70R14) will fit but the resulting look is primarily a matter of taste.



Peter

1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual.
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Raymond

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2008, 11:21:46 »
Hauser,
Try TireRack.com  

Peter,
With genuine reverence and respect to Mr. Uhlenhaut, that was 45 years ago.  Tire technology is a world apart from what he was dealing with.  Even the shocks that he specified are not the same anymore.  I doubt that he would not use the best combination available today.  Every choice is based on the use of the car.  Sticky, wide tires are not for a Concours.  Hard, skinny tires are not for spirited driving.  

My tire opinions are for those of us who aren't afraid to stretch the envelope of Mr. Uhlenhaut's work. So far, everything I have done has improved my enjoyment of a magnificent machine.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
Ray
'68 280SL 5-spd "California" Coupe

Peter van Es

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2008, 12:19:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond

Peter,
With genuine reverence and respect to Mr. Uhlenhaut, that was 45 years ago.  Tire technology is a world apart from what he was dealing with.


Raymond, I'm just quoting what some of our renowned experts here on the board were saying about tire sizes. I think it's a matter of taste... have a look, you and Hauser already have a big difference of opinion.

For the record, I run 195/70 summer (Bridgestone, but N.L.A.) and winter tires (Vredestein) both and am happy with them. Once my summer tires expire, I'll probably buy classic Vredesteins.

Peter

1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual.
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paulr

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2008, 13:07:28 »
Of all the topics, this is the one that seems to return with the most frequency. I have to admit, I feel unsure what to do about tyres. My next set should be the rather expensive £145 each Michelin 185/14 with the rub strip, but especially as it's such a hefty sum that will last so long, I am constantly going back and forth and with comments like "Hard, skinny tires are not for spirited driving." I am further confused. I hate a hard ride and prefer the sort of wallowy "American sedan" type of ride but love the rub strips. I have 195's currently. Oh what to do? It will probably be the 185's in the end but it is difficult .

paulr
lovely 1970 280 SL

Longtooth

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2008, 20:37:06 »
Raymond, thanks much for the info on your using the Yokahama Avid (T4's is my assumption)... can you confirm please that the Avid's were T4's?.   Also, I think the Michelin (Pilot) Exalta is actually Pilot Exalto and I've been unable to find this in a 205/70 14 anywhere.  I also checked the Pilot XGS (or something like that.... it's an Ultra-high performance Pilot)... also no 205/70's in a 14" that I can find on either Michelin's or TireRack's sites.  Do you know where the Exalto can be found in the 205/70 14 size?

For those looking for the Micheline 205/70 HR 14 in an XVS or XWX the Cokertire site has the XWX in that size (VR though, not HR), for a hefty $439 plus about $20 shipping (per tire).

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

hill

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2008, 15:51:57 »
If your just interested in price and performance, I recomend the Sumitomo HTR 200. I have had these on three different mercedes. The only draw back is that like to follow in grooved pavement. $50 a piece. I buy from Tire Rack but are probaly orderable elsewhere.

Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"

Longtooth

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2008, 02:10:31 »
Blackwall v Whitewall W113 History

The extensive book on the development and marketing decisions for the 190SL thru the W113 versions by G. Engelen shows many, many photos of the W113 models over time.  

Ref: Mercedes-Benz 190SL -- 280SL Vom Barock zur Pagode, G. Engelen, 3rd Edition, Motorbuch Verlag, 1997, Stuttgart

Only a very few photo's show the cars with whitewalls.  All the marketing photos used --- with models driving or standing around one, at ski villeges, on runway with fighter jet, and every other venue show the car with blackwall tires.

The car premiered at the Geneva Autoshow in early '63 with blackwalls, but at the Frankfurt International Auto Show in June '63 with the narrow band whitewalls.  

Only a few of photos shown are with whitewalls ---- only some in the '61 & '62 development models in the Sindlefingen development labs display room are shown with the wide whitewalls --- none are with the narrow band whitwalls at that tine.

One of the 3/4 page photos is entitled "The Sindlefingen Glaenzstueck" (roughly translated as the Sindlefingen Gold Piece or Piece of Brilliance) and shows the car with the Blackwall, noted as being Radial Phoenix P110's.

There is also a several page color spread of the eary 230SL in various views and driving action shot--- a signal red one.  This is a set of photos taken for a marketing spread of some kind or another... it's got blackwall tires.  The same signal red 230SL (or one just like it) is shown with a silver 190SL in another color page (in the section on the 190SL) with the blackwall tires while the 190SL is shown with the narrow whitewalls.

Also of historical significance is the Options price list for the German dealers ---  shows that for all 3 versions of the W113 the standard tire (included in base price) was the Radial Blackwall.  The conventional (non-radial) whitewall tire was a higher priced option for the 230SL & 250SL in '66 and '67 price lists respectively.  The radial whitewall is listed as "not available" in those versions.  However, the 280SL options price list from Nov '69 shows the conventional whitewall as "not available", but with the radial whitewall an option at higher price (modestly).  

The point is only that the "proper" SL tire (blackwall v whitewall) is not necessarily a whitewall.  

I do not have original US dealer marketing materials for the '63/'64 or later SL's so I cannot say whether the US marketed version sold the SL's only with the whitewalls or whether this was an option as in the German marketing Options Prices.  

While looking for some history on the Firestone Phoenix tire I came across a classic car dealer (San Diego) with a georgeous '71 280SL for sale (now sold) that has a photo of the "original Phoenix" spare tire still in the trunk --- that picture shows a Phoenix Blackwall though it's certainly possible that there's a whitewall on the other side of the tire as mounted on the wheel-stand in the trunck.  
 http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:f5EYJPDY1ZgJ:motoringinvestments.com/mbz.htm+Firestone+Tire+History+230SL&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

The matter of whether the blackwall or whitewall is the "proper" or "correct" tire for the W113's is therefore only a matter of taste & economics (whitewalls were a higher priced option).  

Considering that nearly every photo in Englene's book that show the car in some marketing or pre-marketing scene for every model of the W113 are shown with blackwalls, and that the Standard base tire was the radial blackwall in Germany indicates that the whitewall tire may have been more a matter of taste for a segment of the popular culture at the time (mid- to late-sixties).  Furthermore, because the whitewalls were a higher priced option it is very likely that those who could afford the SL at the time would have opted for the higher priced optional whitewalls (less than a 1% adder to the base-price Automatic)--- as a further visible distinction of wealth (economic status) if not purely of taste. For example, the radial whitewall option for the '69 280SL was a DM 180 additional cost or ~$45 (set of 5). Consider this added cost against the added cost of leather interior at at DM 800 (~$200 ==> a 3.6% adder to the base price).... radial whitewalls were a more visible (at distance) distinction at 25% the adder for leather.  The base-price for the 280SL (automatic) in Germany at the time ('69) was DM 21,860 or ~$5465.  Based on the number of W113's I've seen advertised for sale over the years, the leather upholstery option was a very, very rarely selected option, so that even the big spenders who could afford the SL in the 1st instance were hard-pressed to add another nearly 4% for leather.... but whitewalls were only a 0.8% adder... so probably selected as an option in the US market at the time due to the narrow band whitewall being more popular & upscale... our 1st new car purchase (no trade-in, cash purchase) was a '70 VW... and we opted for the whitewalls --- i.e. bargained for whitewalls to be included in the price previously quoted for the standard blackwalls.

But, the whitewall tire was not the "proper" designated tire for the SL's so those who choose to use the blackwall (price for whitewalls being prohibitive perhaps) on their SL today are not compromising it aesthetically unless they like the look of the whitewall on the SL better.  I was at a classic MB auto restorer (body & paint shop) yesterday (taking my wheels to be repainted back to body color from black) and the owner showed me a restored 300SE cabriolet who's owner had opted to have his whitewalls mounted backwards --- blackwall showing... he liked the look better but had purchased the whitewalls so that he could eventually sell the car with whitewalls.  

Blackwall vs Whitewall on the W113's is therefore purely and only a matter of personal taste and to a lesser degree, economics in availability.  

It is also noted that the 230SL rallye version of the SL (marketed by MB as the 230SL Rallye version) of course didn't have whitewalls as an option.  Wheels were optionally 5.5 JK x 13's or x 15's (steel or aluminum) with tire size options 7.5 x 13, 8.5 x 13 (Racing), or 7 x 15. The winning 230SL in the '63 Spa-Sofi-Luettich rallye used the 15 inch wheels (with 1mm larger bore & 167 horsepower). The 230SL team in the '64 race used 13 inch wheels, a 2.56L version of the 230SL engine (same bore as the '63 rallye engine, but longer stroke with 173 horsepower). Thus, perhaps a slight 'sportier' appearance of the SL is obtained with blackwalls --- a full-out sporty appearance with at least 3 if not 5 rallye lights AND no hubcaps even. ... and a number on the side, with sufficient spreckels of mud and dirt along the sides and windsheild.    

I would therefore very much appreciate it if someone could elaborate on reasoning or verifiable basis for the "proper" or "correct" tire being the whitewall on the W113's.
     


Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

Peter van Es

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2008, 03:02:43 »
Off Topic:

Please buy all your 280SL books from this page in the Technical Manual: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Documents.Start

Just click on the particular book's cover photograph. Amazon pays sl113.org a small referral fee which we use to fund this site.

Peter

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mbz.280sl

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2008, 11:10:06 »
Whitewall tires are listed as an option on the Data Card. It's 641 - Reifen Weisswand - or in English white wall tire. My car, which is a 1969 280SL, has this option listed on the data card. I don't know if this was always an option but it appears to be at least for the 280SL.

Otto
1969 280SL, Manual, AC,  Sand Beige
Otto
1969 280SL, 4 speed manual, AC,  Sand Beige

hauser

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Re: tire sizes
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2008, 23:01:13 »
Here's a helpful hint when looking for tires through the Tirerack.  Once you have chosen a tire or two compare the specs.  Even though they may be of the same size there is often a difference in diameter which will change the revolutions per mile.  What may seem like a small difference make make a difference over the next 10,000 miles or so.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.