Engine Surprise

[Richard Madison]

For those who enjoy thinking about installing other engines in these cars, here's one for you to consider:

Ebay item  290217762509

Richard M

P.S. The image name "TempEngine" is the name I gave to the photo...the engine does not seem temporary at all.


Download Attachment: TempEngine.jpg
22.29 KB

[Paddy_Crow]

I think I've seen that one on eBay a few times before. Way overpriced, if you ask me.

[mdsalemi]

Knowing nothing of this particular car or its owner, I can only hazard a guess that the Ford V8 installed might be the venerable small-block 260 or 289 which was the PREFERRED engine in a Triumph Stag (since the original Triumph V8 was so bad that the best Stags had them quickly removed and various engines fitted including the Ford) and also cut its teeth in the Sunbeam Tigers, a/k/a the poor man's Cobra.  Bottom line?  If you are going to bastardize a W113 with any kind of engine transplant you could do a lot worse than a Ford V8.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[Benz Dr.]

The problem with larger American V's is the oil pan and the general size of the engine. I saw one with a 340 in it and it was bastardized beyond belief. Everything didn't fit so they took out a cutting torch and hacked away at everything until it did.
Subframe to make room for ther oil pan.
Big hole in the transmission tunnel for the shifter.
Rad cradle for some reason.
Nose pannel - not sure why......
Idle arm mount because it was in the way.
Various other places - who knows?

Anyway, I bought the car and used all the spare parts and sold the body shell which had all new pannels on it. A friend of mine saw it cut in two at a local scrap yard somewhere around Toronto after I sold the shell and bought what was left of it to finish his own 280SL. Somehow he thought I'd be interested in what was left and offered it to me for almost as much as I sold the shell for. When he described it to me I figured out what it was and where it came from. Pretty sad considering it was an RM Restoration project that someone bailed out of and the original owner had big plans for it. The guy I bought it from paid the bill at RM and got the ownership but hacked a nice car all apart to create godzila.

The sad part is that it was actually a pretty decent car until he got a hold of it and it still could have been restored by someone with a rusty example using all their own pieces from their own car. It didn't have any drive train parts but most of it was still in boxes when I bought it. Sadly, someone just threw out the last remaining piece of the body shell as a used razor blade.

Too many of these '' projects ''never get finished after someone finds out just how hard it is to do all of these things. Just trying to do an original car is more work than the average person can afford or contemplate these days without going in a differenty direction.




Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061

[mdsalemi]

...and despite overwhelming proof and evidence from sea to shining sea, (that's all seas and habited continents) we STILL have people trying to fit engines and transmissions that don't belong...

Doc, I'm with you--the telling statement you made is Too many of these "projects" never get finished after someone finds out just how hard it is to do all of these things. Just trying to do an original car is more work than the average person can afford or contemplate these days without going in a different direction.

There was talk some time ago about people fitting the T5 transmission to our car (again, the quest for a 5th gear and lower engine RPM's) and I'd still love to see that one...


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[glennard]

Mike, Are you trying to tell me I can't put a 6.3 into my Pagada?  I'm shocked and heartbroken.[:0]

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by glennard

Mike, Are you trying to tell me I can't put a 6.3 into my Pagada?  I'm shocked and heartbroken.[:0]

While I know you are joking Glenn, you can do with your car what you want of course.

However, I am emphasizing the following points: IF you need a new engine that would somehow have you thinking of installing a 6.3, you'll have a tough enough, expensive enough time with the stock or original rebuilt engine (Dr. Benz: twice as long and twice as expensive as you think!).  Considering a 6.3 will make it considerably more difficult than that--no matter what you think.

Second point, pardon my language, is that if you do it, you will have "bastardized" your W113.

Third point is if you decide to do it, complete the project.  There's enough of these "I'm going to install this XYZ transmission, or a ABC rear end, or a V8 engine", or some other major drivetrain component ostensibly to "improve" the car.  Somehow we hear of the dreams, but we don't see the reality.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[DavidBrough]

I do have to admit to a certain amount of empathy with some of these engine/transmission swap projects if it gives you want a more modern car in a stylish old body. The Mechatronic MSL is a good example but I just couldn’t afford one. This is also a good example of the horrendous workload and cost required to properly change these types of components from standard.
At the moment my wife runs an A170 but we would both like to swap it for an old car with modern underpinnings, reliability, performance and fuel consumption plus an automatic gearbox and A/C. She does drive the Pagoda but feels a bit uneasy in a “properly” old car on her own. Ideas have bounced around a modified Triumph Herald or Morris Minor but trying to find someone who has fitted a modern engine and automatic gearbox has so far proved fruitless. The MGB boys do quite a lot of upgrades over here and I had thought of that but they don’t do 4 proper seats. I might yet just rebuild an early 70’s Alfa GTV as they did come in auto and with A/C. One day!

David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C

[JamesL]

David

You want to buy her a Beacham Jag Mk2

4 seats. Old car, modern running gear. and Lottery money!

Tried the Spyder Elan+2?

[DavidBrough]

Hi Tosh,

A MK2 is a strong contender as lots of people upgrade these although the preference would still be for something smaller. It would be nice to be able to afford a Beacham though.

David Brough
1969 280SL Auto with A/C

[Garry]

I note Michael's that you think people have 'basterdised' their pagoda's by the fitting of non-standard engines or transmissions, and others have noted that the projects often do not get finished however in one of the other legs of the forum, I asked a question about changing my four speed for a 5 speed gearbox and the potential for using a non MB unit due to cost and parts availability.
It makes me feel uncomfortable to do so and I will explain why.

In my case I have been driving around in my car (69 280SL 4 speed?) for some 5 years (mostly open highway driving) always under the impression that the gearbox was the original but thinking that it would be nice to operate at about 500 RPM lower. However, thanks to MBUSA, I was able to get my data card and find out to both my joy and horror that the car was delivered with a 5 speed transmission and a 4.08 diff.
My first thought was that I had never tried to put it into fifth gear and with that on my mind I rushed the 130 miles to where I keep the car stored and tried to find another gear.  Sadly with out any luck but also thankfull that I didnt look like a complete fool.

My question now for Michael is,
if the data card shows a 5 speed and the car is fitted with a MB 4 speed is it by his definition a 'bastardised' car and if I now fit a Toyota 5 speed cos I cannot find a reasonably priced 5 speed (quote from Pagoden was 10,000 Euro plus shipping)will it become a 'totally basterdised' car or just remain the same 'basterdised' car it has been since someone in its past history perhapse could not afford to replace the 5 speed or like some on the forum have suggested, changed it to a 4 speed cos parts are too hard to come by for the 5 speed?

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

[mdsalemi]

Well, Garry, you are dealing with a bit of semantics here.

If you can "get it together" the way you want for the price you want to pay, and it doesn't bother you, I guess you are OK.  I wouldn't touch an MB with a Toyota transmission at all, but that's me.

If you try to sell (maybe that's not on your horizon)an MB with a Toyota transmission, there's not too many buyers, particularly savvy ones, who will look upon that with any kind of positive reaction.

Yes if it doesn't match the data card, it isn't right.  But as we all guess it's not too easy and maybe not too wise to go and try and find a ZF 5 speed.  Fitting a proper MB 4 speed that came on many other 113 cars is preferable from a restoration and historical perspective.  I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

Originality is always worth a bit more than substitution, but it depends on your goals.  If you absolutely, positively need 500 less RPM to make your life better and you want to go through the exercise, by all means do so.  But if you go to sell the car in the future and this Toyota transmission doesn't curry much favor, remember you read it here first.

Yes, even the MSL is a bastard, pure and simple.  But a nice one at that!  It isn't a fair comparison to a transmission substitution because the MSL really is a totally new car with an old body shell.


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[Mike Hughes]

I would weigh in by saying that replacing a failed and unrepairable M-B 5-speed transmission with a substitute period and vehicle correct M-B 4-speed transmission does not fall into the category of "bastardization."  No unreversable modifications needed to be performed to the body or braketry to accomplish this service replacement, which may very well have been done by a P.O.'s M-B dealer service department.  The same might even apply to replacing a rear end with one having different axle ratio.

Grafting non-M-B components into the car san be regarded in a different light.  Personally, I wouldn't be too upset if it is just a driver, no cutting was required and there is no visible street level alteration of exterior appearance, interior fittings shift lever),or engine compartment.  That isn't always the case when adapting strange mechanical components to another make of car.

The beauty of the M-B 4-speed replacement in your car (and a rear axle swap to lower your highway rpms, if you choose to do it) is that nobody, not even a concourse judge, will likely know by looking at it that there were ever any drivetrain component transplants in the car's service history - unless of course you tell 'em!

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

[Garry]

Thanks Michael and Mike for your thoughts.  
As I said in my earlier post on another topic I am really loath to go down the non MB gear box route and really would like to get it to as original as possible and after reading both your comments, feel that I either hold out for a ZF 5 speed and take the hit on $$ and or change to a lower rear axle ratio if I want to just lower the RPM in the interim until a gear box is found.


Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

[Benz Dr.]

The 4.08 is very low gearing. Try a 3.69 which is actually correct for 25OSL and some 280SL's. The 3.5 coupe came with this gear ratio I believe. You will lower your engine RPM by 390 which is actually a fair amount. It's noticable.

I've thought about trying this axel in my 5 speed. Final ratio would be about 3150 at 70 MPH. Top speed would be over 140 MPH if you were crazy enough to try it and if it really would do it ( which I doubt )

MPG should go up quite a bit though. I'm getting 10KM per liter right now and should get about 11.5 KM per liter at the same road speed.
The gearing is so low on the 4,08 that I normally use second gear to pull away from a stop on a level crossing. First gear makes the car really jump but the 3,69 would work very well with this set up. I could stay in forth gear most of the time and still have 5th for open road touring. Just a thought but 32 miles per imperial gallon looks pretty atractive at 1.20 per liter. I'm just old enough that I still think in galons/miles per liter.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061

[Garry]

Thanks Dan,

With the 4.08 in at the moment and 4 gears it easily pulls away in second with out any problem and in city driving is really good.
I have been offered a 5 speed ZF gearbox to get my car back to original that comes from a 3.5 108 that was changed from auto to 5 speed before it ended up in a wreckers yard in Australia and am trying to get the exact details of it and will probably have to ask on this forum to see if it is the right one for a 280SL.

Australians only dream of buying petrol for $1.20 a litre. Where I live it varies from 1.47 to 1.55.  Wait a few minutes and the UK members will really tell you what the price of it is like there.

And as for crossing to metric here in 1966, I have never been able to think in other than MPG and feet and inches.
regards

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200

[Garry]

You are right Dan on the rarity of the 5 speed gearbox from the 108 and unfortunately it is not the ZF I need to get my 280sl back to original. However, it is so rare that we are now trying to get it to Patrick Welte in Italy who has been looking for several years for one for his W111 280se 3.5 Coupe

Now if I could only find a zf for my car!!!

Cheers
Garry

Garry Marks
Australia
69 280SL Manual
02 320ML
05 A200