what if you could....

[Mark280SL]

I think my Pagoda is great the way it is and love it for many reasons, we all do....I will keep it maintained the best I can and looking the way it should (original as possible) during all it's time in my care.

That said I was thinking about the car over the weekend when I took it for a drive in the country and got to thinking about the people who designed it many years ago. That then got me to thinking what if you were there on the design team back in the day when this car was first designed.... and ongoing through the years of production and you could have added features or functions to the design and engineering of the product that was to go to the market? Lets assume that what you might want to add or change would have to have been technologicaly possible or at least close to being possible back in those days...

For me, one thing I would have liked is a retractable hardtop option, I might like the design of the dashboard and instruments to be slightly different and perhaps some engine performance modifications.


Mark
1970 280 SL Ivory/Cognac

[Richard Madison]

This is probably related to the message thread that discusses what we don't like about these cars...

Here's a wish list (a wish list that will never come true):

Easier and more elegant soft top mechanism; instruments that can be seen when a Grant or Nardi wheel is installed; easier way to change the oil and oil filter; neater engine compartment layout (it looks like when they decided they needed another relay or a hose to go from A to B, they just found any spot for the relay and just ran a hose on top of anything that was already there. To me, the underhood looks like a prototype test engine before the "clean-up engineers" take over...with these cars, they never "cleaned up" under the hood.

More: easy, simple way for an advance amateur to adjust timing, idle speed, fuel injector, and other geometry under the hood; convenient access to the dash area; a glove box that goes back in easy and straight; a First gear that you can stay in for more than 2 seconds; heater levers that don't break and that can be changed in 10 minutes! and rust proetection that works!  

That's all for now. Believe it or not, I still love the car.

Richard M

[john.mancini]

Great topic. For me, I would not change a thing about the car's appearance. That's what makes the 113's so timeless and beautiful. I would however, add a little "zip" to the performance. Another 50-60 horses would have been nice. Some might like other power options, like power windows, door locks, etc. I am amazed, having owned many Mustangs with power tops, that MB never offered a power soft-top. I find the manual soft-tops can be a real pain in the butt to operate at times.
Still love these cars though!
John M

[Mark280SL]

Good points all Richard...actually I was thinking less about things we don't like and more about what could have been if the guys designing the car from the big picture perspective when they were standing in front of the drawing boards went in a different direction on some areas of design and engineering.

I love the overall design and outward look of the car but sometimes I think, what if...

[doitwright]

I am sure we are aware that Mercedes has been doing exactly what you are referring to.  The SL series has continued to evolve since the discontinuation of the 113 chassis.  The latest versions are known as the SL550 and SL600.  And if 510 HP is not enough, there is the McLaren at 614 HP.  If you want new technology in a w113 chassis, that is being done also by Mechatronik.  "Improving" the w113 has been discussed and debated regularly on this site with many strong opinions being expressed.  



Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Light Ivory

[Paddy_Crow]

The main thing I would have liked to see is a better powertrain match. First gear in the automatic is pretty useless and the engine revs too high at highway speed.

I probably wouldn't have done the wood just for durability sake. Wood mixed with sun and moisture just doesn't hold up well unless it is meticulously maintained.

[Mark280SL]

Thanks, I'm aware of the ongoing evolution of the car by the manufacturer, what a SL550 and SL600 is as well as Mechatronik. The point of the original topic is what would a creative person/engineer of the time have added to the car at that time if he could have. I didn't imply or use the word "improving" in the modern sense...Looking more for creative thought in the general topic forum if you know what I mean. But thanks for pointing that out.... I can see where you are coming from though.

quote:Originally posted by doitwright

I am sure we are aware that Mercedes has been doing exactly what you are referring to.  The SL series has continued to evolve since the discontinuation of the 113 chassis.  The latest versions are known as the SL550 and SL600.  And if 510 HP is not enough, there is the McLaren at 614 HP.  If you want new technology in a w113 chassis, that is being done also by Mechatronik.  "Improving" the w113 has been discussed and debated regularly on this site with many strong opinions being expressed.  



Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Light Ivory

[waltklatt]

Nothing appearance-wise would be changed.  
But an all aluminum body on an aluminum frame would do wonders to our mileage maladies.  Make the cars lighter while retaining the same integrity.
Also improving the lighting system and heating and ventilation system.
Also improve the seat supportivity on corners, and keep them as thin as possible(need room for my big 6'-8" frame).  Finishing the detailing on the door glass side of the A posts, looks a bit last minute thinking there, barely covering the chrome there.  The fabric covered A posts are not covering everything there.
Just a few for now.  
Walter Klatt
1967 220SL-diesel, longing for a "SuperLeggera" body.

[68_white]

I WOULD CHANGE NOTHING EXCEPT FOR THE TRANSMISSION GEAR RATIOS.

ALL GEARS SHOULD BE HIGHER ON EITHER AUTO OR MANUAL.

HARRY

68_WHITE
70_RED

[GTMSJ]

The pagoda is beautiful as is, but IF one were to make a few changes, I'd opt to up the horsepower, improve the gear ratios, improve braking performance, and extend the summer months for more top-down driving days.

1970 280 sl silver/red
1992 NSX
1998 GS400

[Richard Madison]

Gary:

Thanks for your wish for more Summer months but don't you already have 12 Summer months in San Jose California?

Richard M, NYC (with only a few Summer months)

[gwuisman]

I always wonder why MB did not used the W111 style of headlights. Our cars would have got even more elegancy.

Download Attachment: mbf220se-coupe.jpg
32.27 KB

Gerard Wuisman
1971 280sl

[gugel]

Like others, I would not have changed the appearance or elegance of the car, except for a neater engine compartment layout, as Richard M mentioned.  Electronic fuel injection and independent link rear suspension would have been nice, but AFAIK they weren't developed until about 1970.  I would have put in a lot more sound dampening insulation; a smaller steering wheel; a smoother shifting, quieter, manual transmission; and a better soft top mechanism.  I would also have made some effort to find a sealant (e.g., under the soft top chrome) that didn't turn to concrete as it aged.  

Chris Earnest

[DavidBrough]

As already mentioned a few times it’s just the transmission for me, if someone came up with an alternative auto box with 4 (or dare I say 5) well spaced ratios I would be first in the queue.

David Brough
1969 280Sl Auto with A/C

[rwmastel]

I think a power folding hard top would not meet your "... would have been technologically possible ..." criteria.  It would have taken all the trunk room and added lots of weight.  OK, maybe technologically possible, but not sensible.

I would have increased performance:
- Used the 3.5 liter V-8 and a rear axle with disk brakes and 3.27 ratio.  (Differential ratio corrects for high transmission gearing.)
- Used the bigger disk brakes from the V-8 sedans.
- Made a more sporty look. (I like the 300SL style vents on the W113 prototype.)
- Used 15" wheels.
- Used more aluminium panels/parts to save weight.
- Redesign the body slightly for better aerodynamics.
- Tuned the suspension to be more sporty.

I would have increased ease of drivability:
- Used brigher dash lights and better head lights.
- Used a deeper bucket seat.
- Incorperated slightly taller seatbacks.
- Incorperated air condtioning into the dash instead of below.
- Used a larger fuel tank.

I would have changed some trim items:
- Wood steering wheel & shift knob.
- Chrome window crank knobs and seat adjustment knobs.
- Maintained translucent heater levers through end of production.


Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

[abe280SL]

How about a turbo 280 sl.

abe
1968 280SL Auto
Signal Red w Beige Int

[Mark280SL]

Rodd,

Thanks Rodd I love your list of ideas, the best yet and right along the lines of what I had in mind when I wrote the post. Very well thought out, you know your car well.

And...thanks for all you do for this group, I see you put a lot of effort in, I appreciate it.

I'm going to disagree on the retractable hard top  though I would argue that it was definetly doable technology wise, it had been done by other auto makers prior to that and in my humble opinion if done right it would be both great and practical. Granted it's 40 years later but look at that Lexus coupe with the retractable top, a good idea first done many years before is now a big part of a state of the art car.

quote:Originally posted by rwmastel

I think a power folding hard top would not meet your "... would have been technologically possible ..." criteria.  It would have taken all the trunk room and added lots of weight.  OK, maybe technologically possible, but not sensible.

I would have increased performance:
- Used the 3.5 liter V-8 and a rear axle with disk brakes and 3.27 ratio.  (Differential ratio corrects for high transmission gearing.)
- Used the bigger disk brakes from the V-8 sedans.
- Made a more sporty look. (I like the 300SL style vents on the W113 prototype.)
- Used 15" wheels.
- Used more aluminium panels/parts to save weight.
- Redesign the body slightly for better aerodynamics.
- Tuned the suspension to be more sporty.

I would have increased ease of drivability:
- Used brigher dash lights and better head lights.
- Used a deeper bucket seat.
- Incorperated slightly taller seatbacks.
- Incorperated air condtioning into the dash instead of below.
- Used a larger fuel tank.

I would have changed some trim items:
- Wood steering wheel & shift knob.
- Chrome window crank knobs and seat adjustment knobs.
- Maintained translucent heater levers through end of production.


Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

Mark
1970 280 SL Ivory/Cognac

[redpagoda]

I dont want to spoil it with only half a story but I promise on completion to provide a full story. But here is a small insight.

Download Attachment: Engbay.jpg
62.41 KB

The exhaust manifolds are ceramic coated in and out to provide improved airflow and better heat dispersion. I hope by end of June to provide the forum with the full story

Regards

1967 250SL, Alfa 2600 Spider 1964, Porsche 911 1993, VW Passat 2001

[cth350]

Cup holders?  Then again, I wish my 1992 190E 2.6 had them.

Shift your time thinking a little. The guys noodling over the design were doing it back in 1959 or so.  And at that period of time, they did a great job of adapting what they could from the sedan engineering into the SL concept that was the older 190SL base.

A retractable softtop would have been a non-starter because the soft top is wider than the trunk by a fair bit.  Then again, they could have probably gotten it to fold inboard as well as backwards, so maybe.

-CTH

[ted280sl]

I read that many of you are not happy with the transmission gearing. I would suspect that those that are not happy have the US larger rear end. The Euro version of the 113 came with a smaller ration rear end. I had mine changed and it made a huge difference in the gearing.

Ted 1969 280sl

[seattle_Jerry]

1. Aluminum body
2. Aluminum block engine with more torque possibly supercharged
3. A hood that opens like a Triumph or Jag (the entire hood and fenders tilt up making it so much easier to work on the engine/suspension)
4. The ability to reach up and under the dash
5. more leg room.
6. better rear suspension

At least the list doesn't include roll up windows and heat