Radiator fan

[Martijn]

While driving last weekend I heard a strange metallic rattle from the front end of the car. This sound came up while revving over 2500 rpm.  After some searching under the hood I noticed that the fan has some play. I can move the tip of the blades about 6 mm (0.25 in.) forwards and backwards.  The water pump pulley tilts together with the fan when I move a blade.

What could be the cause of this? Is this a familiar problem?  I expect that the ball bearings of the water pump are worn, but there is no leakage of coolant. Not a single drop.  

If I have to replace the water pump, is it necessary to remove the radiator first or is it possible to leave it in place?

Thanks.
Martijn Sjerps

[waqas]

The fan-to-pump bolts may be loose. Can you slip a thin #10 open-ended wrench in there to see?

Some cars have shims between the pulley and the pump to line everything up (especially the cars with A/C and using the short pump. Each shim is usually a one-piece item covering all four fan-to-pump bolts. However, I once found a set of washers used as shims, with each bolt having it's own set of washers (surely a non-standard setup). If yours is like this, some of these washers may have disintegrated.

The only way to really find out would be to remove the fan and pulley and see what's going on. Unfortunately, this is not easy without removing the radiator, which is difficult to remove unless you drop it from the bottom, etc, etc.

[jeffc280sl]

I suspect you are correct in the diagnosis.  Replacing the water pump is a pain.  I would empty and drop the radiator versus removing it through the hood side. Removing the front grill helps provide the best access. While in there I suggest you replace all of the rubber hoses in that area.

Do a search on "water pump" and you should find plenty of references.  Here is a picture of what you are looking at.

Download Attachment: fanpump.jpg
32.03 KB

[tuultyme]

A few years ago my mechanic diagnoses a similar noise to the water pump.  I replaced it without removing the hood or the radiator.  The fan is probably the hardest thing to remove; very little wrench room.

[ja17]

Hello Martijn,

If you loosen the 10mm mounting bolts to the radiator it should move forward a bit (holes are slotted). Doing this may allow enough space to remove the water pump with the radiator in place.

[Martijn]

Thank you guys for the feedback. This is helpful for me.

Regards,
Martijn

[Martijn]

Finally I had the time to start this project. At first I removed the hood and loosened the four bolts of the radiator. When I slid the radiator forwards (slotted holes) there was just too little space to remove the fan. I removed the two bolts on the top side of the radiator and tilted it a little bit. That created just enough space.

The five bolts of the water pump to the pump housing came off rather easy. But now my problem is that the pump is stuck to the housing. I read in previous posts that you could carefully try to tap the pump a little with a wooden hammer. But there is no movement. I am scared to damage something if I use force. What can I do to loosen the pump?

Another question. As you can see on the pictures I have the short version of the water pump. I think the previous owner removed the A/C and added an extra hub on the water pump. When I renew the pump, is it possible to install the long version of the pump? I think the distance between the bearings of the long version pump is larger. Probably this makes it more robust. Or is the durability of the short and long version pump the same?

Thanks, Martijn

[waqas]

quote:Originally posted by Martijn

What can I do to loosen the pump?

Since you plan to replace the pump anyway, there is no harm in tapping away at the pump until it comes loose. Remember to tap in all directions. Also, you can possibly grab the pump housing and turn it relative to the housing. Finally, you can bolt a long bar or angle-iron to the pump hub (where the fan mounts) and try to lever it off...

The only caution I would give is to be very careful with the water pump housing (what the pump is attached to)-- it is made of aluminium, so DO NOT attempt to pry the pump apart at the mating point, you will probably damage the housing.

quote:When I renew the pump, is it possible to install the long version of the pump?

Yes. This will require shorted fan mounting bolts, but I think it's a good idea. Keep the old hub spacer around just in case.

quote:... is the durability of the short and long version pump the same?

No idea. I too would like to know...

[jameshoward]

Martijn,

As it happens, I did this very job last night. My water pump needed replacing; you should see the thread started by me that goes into similar detail. It's still on the first page in this forum.

Here's what I would strongly recommend to you as a process:

1. Drain the coolant using the large hose (not the plug - see my thread about snapping the radiator coolant plug for reasons why).

2. Drop (through the bottom) the radiator (you will need to remove the air filter housing first; not hard at all). You may feel that this is not worth doing having removed the hood but I can absolutely assure you that it will make all the difference. It gives you so much more room at the front of the car to work with. I also strongly recommend you remove the front chrome grille. All your work can then be done through the front of the car instead of leaning over the side (although with the hood removed you may feel this is not needed - I left the hood on).

3. Slacken off the alternator to allow slack in the belt. Remove belt. My pump was also stuck pretty fast. I tried tapping it off with a plastic mallet, but it would not budge. In the end I got a scaple (or a craft knift) and cut into the gasket area to break the seal. I kept edging the knife around to weaken the old gasket and then by tapping in the same place it came loose after a few minutes of cutting. I'd recommend this solution.

4. With the pump off, you should replace it. It costs E60 from SLS. I also changed the small metal line you can see in your picture, and the very short pipe (left) partially hidden in your top photo (E6 from SLS); yours looks a little older than the other pipes.

5. Despite what Waqas said, I do not think you can change to a long pump as your set up looks exactly like mine. I think you have removed the pully, though, and put the hub back on before you took your photo? If this is correct, you cannot change pumps as your pulley will then be apprx 1.25" forward and way out of alignment for the alternator etc. (I ordered a long pump and had that experience already). I do not know if your car had ac; there must be some way of telling or whether the engine is non-original and has come from another car. I do know that my car never had AC and does not have the original engine. I also know that the car my engine came from did not have AC but yet I still have the short pump.

My advice is to buy a new short pump and replace it that way. Note that you will need to put something like hylomar on the gasket and a form of instant gasket on the 5 bolts (use new ones) that go into the pump as they will also be in the coolant as you will see when you get the pump off.

I'm putting my car back together today to test it. Removing the rad takes about 30 mins.

Good luck.

[waqas]

Remember to put thread sealant on the pump bolts (they enter water-jackets).

Try not to over-tighten the pump bolts. The aluminium housing threads can strip easily. I discovered a stripped thread when I removed mine, and I eventually had to remove the entire housing and use a Helicoil insert.

[waqas]

On the more important topic of Oranje Voetbal... Hup Holland Hup!

[Martijn]

The water pump came off!!  Sorry, but every small step is a little victory to me. For me this is the first time that I do something major on a car. Although for others it might be a simple job.

This evening I first tried James' tip to cut the gasket with a knife. Unfortenately, this did not work for me. After that I tried to tap it carefully with a (steel) mallet in all directions, like Waqas wrote. This worked. Slowly it came loose.
Now I could investigate the pump. There is indeed little play in shaft, about 1 mm. Tomorrow I will order a new one.

I also have removed the little U-shaped air vent pipe. James, do really think it's wise to replace the little hose beneath the thermostat? Then I have to remove the thermostat also. But at this stage it is rather easy, off course.

James, about your 5th point: I have a pulley which is suitable for 3 belts. The belt runs over the third slot, closest to the engine. The assembly is as follows: water pump - extra hub - pulley (for 3 belts) - clutch/fan. Because the total length of the short pump plus the extra hub is equal to a long version pump, I think I could swap this assembly for a long version pump. But I am not sure. Tomorrow I will call my dealer. Perhaps he can clarify this.

Does anyone know the exact type of the five bolts for the waterpump? What kind of material is this?

James and Waqas, thank you both for your support. It is nice to know I am not alone in this.

Martijn

P.S.: Waqas, I am surprised you are informed about European soccer! So far, Holland is doing really well. We have won all three matches and now we have qualified for the quarter finals coming saturday.

[waqas]

For novices like us, every little step is worthy of celebration!  

I replaced the old bolts and washers with regular-grade stainless steel... these should be more than adequate.

Contrary to popular belief, there are quite a few of us this side of the pond who follow and play the beautiful game.  On top of that, I've been a Dutch fan for as long as I can remember. The Netherlands has produced some of the finest players in history. I eagerly await a repeat of Euro '88...

[jameshoward]

Martijn,

Congratulations on getting the pump off. Judging by your photos your engine looks superb! (And absolutely nothing like mine - I am surprised your pump failed; it all looks immaculate and new). Anyway, with the info about the 3 pulley belt what you are saying makes more sense. However, (and postulating) I think you'd have to buy a new single pulley if you went for the longer pump. You may be correct about the car having had AC before (if you don't have the data card, get it and check). Personally, I'd stick with the short pump and use the same pulley to save money.

About the short hose. Given the condition of your engine and assuming the hoses are as new as they look, I wouldn't bother changing it or the U-shaped hose. That said, there is no need to remove the thermostat to change it. I thought I might have to but I managed to get the old one off and the new one on without having to remove anything. I heated it up in very hot water to make it more maleable and then used some light oil on the outside of the aluminium parts to make it move easily. Took about 10 minutes.

As for the bolts for the waterpump I just used chrome plated bolts. I think the ones I pulled from my car were 16mm long. I could only find 14 & 18mm. Now you have the pump off you can see how the bolts are effectively in the jacket so I checked the bolts and used 4 x 18mm ones and 1 x 14mm one (this was in the screw hole at the 8 o'clock position; it would not accept an 18mm bolt). I used hylomar (a blue gasket compound) on both faces of the new gasket between the pump and housing, and I used Loctite 510 (an instant gasket or gasket replacement) on the bolts. It will stop the coolant coming out along the threads.

That's about it I think. I put in my air filter housing tonight and put the rest of the car back together having topped up the coolant again and changed the mix for summer. I ran it a little and it seemed fine. Tomorrow I will take it for a proper drive.

Finally, since we're on the subject, I think Croatia are the ones to beat. Does NL have the edge to beat them? I don't know, but I hope so. So long as France or Germany get soundly thrashed. (It's so embarassing that England isn't even there, I can't tell you...)

JH

[66andBlue]

quote:Originally posted by jameshoward

... Finally, since we're on the subject,.....It's so embarassing that England isn't even there, I can't tell you...

James,
look at the bright side. The thrashing by the current Dutch team would have been even higher than the 3-1 they received in 1988!  

[jameshoward]

Alfred,

Thanks. No, really.

Quite how the nation that used to be seen as the home of football (and cricket and rugby and golf and numerous other sports) has become just sooo bad at everything amazes me. I suppose that's what happens when a society obsesses about politcal correctness, where young children are taught that it's OK not to win and that competition is at best unsavoury. Add to that a government (loosely speaking) that deems it OK to allow inner city schools to sell their sports pitches to raise money to make up for low education spending and what you end up with is a bunch of idle fat teens who have no sense of competition and who expect everything to be delivered on a plate!

But I digress slightly...now where's that hammer...

[Martijn]

Friday I contacted my parts dealer and mechanic Jaap Havik in Purmerend. He told me that there is no difference in durability between the long and short version of the water pump. So I ordered the short version, because for me I think it will be easier to replace. Also ordered new radiator hoses and belts for the alternator and servo pump. It turns out the parts are somewhat cheaper compared to SLS. Well... less expensive  

The package with parts will arrive tomorrow. So, I will have something to do for the coming days. And while I'm on the job, I also ordered a replacement for the distributor. The MERCEDES-6-R-V model from 123ignition together with a Bosch blue coil. I hope the engine will run more smoothly after replacement.

I can't wait for my car to be ready. It's summer and this is the time to drive a Pagoda.

Regarding soccer: the Dutch can go home now. Unfortunately the Russians were better. What a big dissappointment  

Martijn