Author Topic: non running 280SL  (Read 41043 times)

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2008, 17:19:58 »
Here is an update. I checked the CSV first hand.  I removed it from the intake manifold and turn ignition to #1 position.  There was no leaking  from the orifices of the injector nozzle.  I then cranked the engine and observed the spray pattern.  It was a nice mist from both orifices.  By  the way the gasket between the intake manifold and the CSV came apart when I removed it.  I ordered a new one from the local stealership.  $9!
I then proceeded to check the rack on the injection pump.  On this car the end of the rack is not threaded so I just pushed on it with a brass punch.  The rack moved freely and sprung back easily.  
Dimitri
'71 280SL

Longtooth

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2008, 04:16:03 »
Dimitri,
In reading your well answered responses to my questions, I'm now perplexed as to why/how the problem  focused on a fuel delivery issue?  Though that's still one of the possible reasons the idling symptoms don't sound like a fuel delivery source to me.

In particular ---
- car ran just fine all warmed up and everything, with no idle problems,  then just dies while driving down the road.

- thereafter idle is poor and difficult to maintain at all, and then only by careful throttle... too much or too little it dies.

- fuel in the final filter container would let car idle from start without issue even if fuel delivery from tank were extremely poor... so not a fuel problem in delivery from tank to pump.

- you get smoke after maintaining a poor idle for 15 sec's or up to a couple of minutes  ... with backfiring too boot.    
   
quote:
It never has good idle. After 15 secs and a little more throttle, the idle will smooth out a bit but the car will put out a profuse amount of white/gray smoke and then backfire a few times.

 
My first inclination is to think these symptoms sound like a valve timing problem.  

The backfire occurs with an ignition during or near the start of the exhaust stroke (intake, compression, ignition, exhaust).  This indicates the spark (ignition) occurs too late (too retarded) or way too far advanced relative to valve timing (ignition occurring too early in compression stroke so intake valve isn't completely closed... so not technically a back-fire from the exhaust but backfire into the intake manifold)... or put another way, spark's too retarded, or exhaust valves opening too soon or aren't closing far enough.

Have you checked compression? ... which would indicate a valve timing or seating, or valve  guide leakage problem if it exists --- though you wouldn't be able to distinguish from warn compression rings.... the symptoms would allow you to focus on the valves.

What's the state of your timing chain?  How many original miles on the cam sprocket and timing chain?

Was the cam replaced when the head was overheated, warped and replaced?  

My thinking runs like this --- it starts but idles with difficulty .. probably (my guess) having to add a little bit of throttle to maintain an idle as time goes on. The  white/grey smoke at the end, before it finally stalls out sounds like incomplete combustion ...i.e. ignition occurring too late in compression cycle or after exhaust valves open (or if poorly seating).  This symptom is consistent in reason with the backfire symptom. The reason this doesn't occur immediately on starting probably (just my guess) has to do with combustion chamber and valves heating up while trying to maintain an idle.  

I see no reason why a fuel delivery problem to the engine would

1) cause a poor idling condition in the 1st place (unless some cylinder's were getting fuel and others not),  &

2) create grey/white smoke as fuel depleted,  &

3) force a final back-fire or two before engine died.

Furthermore, you've now checked the CSV's function and find no issues, so sounds like it's either fuel timing (injection timing) or valve timing. .. .and fuel timing should be constant and wouldn't suddenly change to cause back-firing.

So my curiosity is aroused as to how and why a fuel delivery issue is or has been the primary diagnosis thus far?

An expert on these symptoms and causes with the W113's should chime in at this point.
 
I'm not an expert on this by any stretch though --- I've worked on VW & Porsche engines years ago (rebuilt them from scratch), my truck's former 283 & now 327,  but not on the W113's.   My primary experience with valve timing comes from playing around with my 327's valve timing and ignition timing combinations.... advancing (mostly) or retarding things (by error) to maximize acceleration and power at the expense of fuel efficiency.  It was during those experiments that I frustrated with poor idling, grey/white smoke, etc.... and I was working with my 327 with unknown but umpty-ump gazillion hard miles on it, and my old high compression heads before I decided I had to have the entire mess rebuilt from the ground up. I'm also not a gear-head.... I worked on the VW engines for want of money to pay anybody else to fix the one I nearly melted..  initially for economic necessity as I'd never, ever done anything more with an engine that put oil and water in them.  I worked on Porsche engines for a couple of friends (356's) because they're no different from VW engines in principle, and it was just fun in my spare time (this was after I'd attained a level of economic freedom).  I worked on the 283 and 327 engines in my truck because I wanted to learn more about water cooled big ("real") engines and systems... and again it was for fun and learning (by which time I could easily afford to have somebody else do the work... which I eventually had them do... built from scratch to my spec's).

I've timed my W113 myself a couple of times, and will do so more often now that I retired, but getting the engine to tdc (or where-ever I was supposed to get it) is a **** compared to VW's and GM engines.... and neither of those have to deal at all with fuel delivery timing.... just the mixture.   I'll offer that my distributor is the car's original Bosch and that the rotor shaft cylinder bore is slightly warn, hence I have to offset my static timing slightly to get the dynamic timing right... the bore wear  causes a bias in point set point compared to after driving the car around the block.  The offset's not enough to hardly matter and I can't really notice the difference except under a hard accelerations.... certainly not at idle.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
The 6% Club - Best of the Best
'02 SL500 Sport

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2008, 09:22:55 »
Hi Longtooth,
I've been also started to think along the lines of a timing problem.
Here are some answers to some of your other questions:

Have you checked compression?

-Yes, the compression is about 200 psi across the board.
The values are as follows: Cylinder #s 4,2,6,3,5,1 197, 199, 201, 199, 201, 200 respectively.  The numbers seem a little high.  Perhaps due to the rebuilt head being machined.

What's the state of your timing chain? How many original miles on the cam sprocket and timing chain?

-I don't know the answer to any of these questions.  When I bought the car it did not come with any records.  Only thing I know is that some guy from New Jersey was the previous owner.  The car was bought from Gullwing Motors in LIC New York for $16,000 back in 1997.  The car has undocumented mileage.  I'm guessing 150,000 miles.

Was the cam replaced when the head was overheated, warped and replaced?

-I don't know.  I just took a look at the receipt and it mentions a used head, fan clutch, head gasket, valve cover gasket, spark plugs, etc... but not mention of camshaft.

I'm wondering if I'm not missing something really obvious like a crossed plug wire or something.  As far as timing goes, I'll try to check it.  It'll be challenge since my girlfriend will have to keep the car running for that short time while I perform the test.  I've tried this before and she wasn't able to to finesse the throttle enough to keep the engine from stalling.

Dimitri



Longtooth

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2008, 21:43:28 »
Demitri,
Also check the throttle linkage to the venturi.... take a look at the thread on this forum related to it.

Compression value units are important if all cylinder's have a common valve seating or value guide problem.... but not if any one or a few do.... then only the differences are important.  From your compression data it looks like all 6 cylinder's are behaving the same... so all are either good or all are similarly bad.  That's a good thing.

I don't know how much you know about timing an engine, so pardon me if this is pendantic.  Setting the point gap is done with the the valves at a specific position in the 4 cycle engine (tdc at cylinder number x).  If there's slop in the timing chain (which is common.... just a matter of degree), then you have to get the valves to the set-point (say #1 at tdc for example) by turning the engine only in it's normal direction of rotation.  If you overshoot you can't just back up a bit... you have to go all the way around again... but without overshooting the mark.  There may be 2 highlighted (usually white) marks an the counterweight... one being the tdc point, the other being the advance or retard offset point.  

Since you've set timing before with no problems I assume you're using the correct procedures, but mention the above since sometimes luck has to do with it... and since something's changed (while driving the car to cause it to stall) it's imparative that the the smallest departures be noted --- since it's not always clear that the smallest departures aren't the culprit until after the fact of finding the cause(s).




Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
The 6% Club - Best of the Best
'02 SL500 Sport

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2008, 07:56:39 »
Yikes!  I priced the small rubber/plastic cap in front of the injection pump that covers the end of the rack yesterday.  $140 at the Bethesda dealership, $107 from Rusty!  Why is this part so pricey!  Treat this part with respect when you remove it as insignificant as it may seem.    When I pried it off it started to crumble from age so I have no choice but to replace it.  I'm wondering if the injection pump rebuild shops have another cheaper source for this part which in my opinion should cost no more than $5-10.
Dimitri

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2008, 11:35:11 »
Does anybody know if there is supposed to be a mark on the aluminum distributor body that designates where the wire to the number one cylinder goes?  I'm asking because I see a number one stamped into the distributor but that does not correspond to where the #1 wire goes.  It is actually next to where the #1 wire is attached to the cap. I figured maybe I accidentally rotated all the wires when I replaced my cap and wires 2 years ago.  To make sure I re-attached the wires so that they would correspond to this mark on the distributor but things only turned
out worse.  The car does not start at all now.  Before it would start but not run.  Does anyone know what this mark represents?

Dimitri
'71 280SL

Mike Hughes

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2008, 13:56:30 »
At this point I would start from scratch:

1.)  Remove the spark plug wires and all spark plugs.
2.)  Remove the distributor cap.
3.)  When turning the engine clockwise, note the direction of rotation of the distributor rotor.  Turn the engine by hand until the #1 piston is visible at the top of its travel through the spark plu hole AND the timing mark on the front pully is at the 0 degree indicator.  You have now achieved top dead center (TDC).
4.)  Check the distributor cap to see if #1 plug wire is inserted on the cap adjacent to the position of the rotor.  If not pull off all of the plug leads and put #1 lead on the proper lug on the cap and then insert the remaining leads, following the firing order embossed on the valve cover, in the direction of rotation.

You should now at least have the ingnition lead position and firing order back to normal.  Replace the plugs, reattach the plug wires and reinstall the distributor cap.  If the car was running before you changed the wires around on the cap it should be running at least as well that now - maybe better, if the firing order was incorrect before.
 


- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
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« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 13:59:47 by Mike Hughes »
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
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dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2008, 18:26:31 »
I put the wires back to where they were initially and the car starts again.  They are now where they were when the car was running 2 years ago.  What does this mark on the distributor represent, I wonder?

Also, I checked timing and it is set at about 10 deg BTDC but the plate on the car says it should be 8 ATDC at idle speed.  This doesn't make any sense to me.  When the car was running it must have been set at 10 BTDC since I haven't adjusted anything.

What about the ignition modules, do they have a habit of failing on these cars?  I know I'm reaching.

Dimitri

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2008, 20:57:44 »
OK, I clarified the mark on the distributor.  I don't know what it means but the correct mark that designates the #1 wire is actually on the rim of the distributor, not on the outside.  My wires are in the correct position as the #1 wire location coincides with the mark.  I'll try playing around with the timing and see what happens.
Dimitri

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2008, 10:29:48 »
I played around with the timing by turning the distributor back and forth.  It didn't help any, the engine ran better or worse depending on how much I turned it but overall no change.  The car still runs rough, will stall once the throttle is released and continues to put out much white/grey smoke.  An interesting observation was that the timing light would not fire on the first cylinder when the plug boot was in place.  However, when I pulled the boot and let it arc against the valve cover, the light would flash.  I made the same observation with the #5 wire.  In the meantime the building management is starting to complain about smoke levels in the garage so I can't continue this much longer.  I'm thinking about just getting the thing towed to a mechanic and getting this over with.

Dimitri

pagoden

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2008, 02:27:18 »
Dimitri - I don't in the least blame you. You don't have prominent in your family tree anyone named "Job", perchance?   Ahhh;"Ulysses"!?!

Alas, I am another member outclassed by your challenges. Am now holding out some hope that the ignition oddities you've just noted might mean something to wiser heads and not just indicate plug fouling from all the crappy running. Have you seen them lately? No, I don't mean to imply they're causal, just that they may be getting so fouled as to muddy the situation. Probably wouldn't hurt to pick up a couple of sets, leaving you poised to drop in fresh ones when any headway begins to be made.
 
(At least one Wise Head is swamped at his day job these days, worse luck.)

I live outside DC, toward Baltimore, and could lend hands or a feather-foot if the need becomes great. (Have wrenches and such too, left over from another life; sure wish now that it had had a lot more to do with Mercedes.)

Better luck,
Denny

1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

Mike Hughes

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2008, 13:56:31 »
If you are getting arcing to ground with the plug wires pulled but no signal on an induction timing light when they are snug on the plug I would replace all six plugs with new NON-RESISTOR plugs. Someone chime in if I am wrong on the Bosch plug number:  W7DC or W9DC if you need a hotter plug.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 14:04:56 by Mike Hughes »
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2008, 22:55:45 »
Dennis,  I was also thinking about replacing plugs with "newer ones"

I might take you up on your offer of assistance.  My car is in DC where I live but I also rent a garage in Silver Spring where I'm working on my 220D.  I'm back and forth from Boston so I tend to be away from my cars for 2 week periods or so.

Dimitri

quote:
Originally posted by 3-point roadster

Probably wouldn't hurt to pick up a couple of sets, leaving you poised to drop in fresh ones when any headway begins to be made.
 
(At least one Wise Head is swamped at his day job these days, worse luck.)

I live outside DC, toward Baltimore, and could lend hands or a feather-foot if the need becomes great. (Have wrenches and such too, left over from another life; sure wish now that it had had a lot more to do with Mercedes.)

Better luck,
Denny




dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2008, 22:56:39 »
Mike, please forgive my lack of spark plug knowledge.  Are you saying that I might need a hotter plug?  Also, what are non-resistor plugs?

Dimitri


quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes

If you are getting arcing to ground with the plug wires pulled but no signal on an induction timing light when they are snug on the plug I would replace all six plugs with new NON-RESISTOR plugs. Someone chime in if I am wrong on the Bosch plug number:  W7DC or W9DC if you need a hotter plug.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)




jacovdw

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2008, 01:11:29 »
Dimitri,

Typically, resistor plugs have a resistor built in and is mainly used for interference supression (on modern engines with computer controlled ignition/fuel injection).

Non-resitor plugs have no resistor and is the preferred plug for use on our engines.

Depending on the manufacturer, NGK or Bosch, resistor plugs will have a R in the number.

For example, Bosch WR7DC would be a resistor plug and the W7DC would be the non-resistor variant. Or, NGK BPR6ES for resistor and BP6ES for non-resistor.

With regards to the heat range of the plugs, again it depends on the manufacturer. With NGK, the lower the numerical value of the plug, the hotter it is ( eg. A BP5ES will be hotter than a BP7ES).
With Bosch, it is the other way around - the lower the numbers, the cooler the plug (eg. a W7DC will be cooler than a W9DC).

There are quite a few posts on the sparkplug issue, just do a search.

Which plugs are you using at the moment?

Regards,

Jaco van der Walt
1964 w113 230sl
1975 w114 230.6

Mike Hughes

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2008, 09:48:47 »
Dimitri -

In all your postings there is little information on the state of your engine prior to your starting difficulties.  If your plugs foul easily (oil consumption or rich fuel mixture are two common causes for plug fouling) you might want to try a hotter plug.  It is not unknown for a plug to fail internally and just not deliver spark (it's happened to me!) so changing all your plugs may be an inexpensive means to eliminate this as a cause for your starting and running problem.  Check all of your plug wires for sparking to ground like you checked the #1 wire earlier to eliminate a bad plug wire as the culprit.  Also check the contacts on the plug wire ends to insure that they grip the plug firmly.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 09:49:35 by Mike Hughes »
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2008, 16:54:04 »
Mike, the car doesn't burn any more oil than normal.  It probably does run a little rich as I can smell gas in the oil.  I did actually check all other plugs with the timing light.  The light flashes when attached to all wires except numbers 1 and 5.  I also removed #5 wire from plug and it sparked to ground.   The timing light flashed when I did that.  These plugs are new in the sense that they were replaced when the trouble started .  I removed them again a little while ago when I checked compression and they were not particularly fouled.  I'll report back on the model of NGK plug I used.  I'm away from my car for 2 weeks again, so I'll have my girlfriend read the numbers off of the box.  I suspect they are the non-resistor type.  If that is the case then like you say a hotter plug might help.

Dimitri

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2008, 21:29:02 »
Well, it turns out that the plugs are Bosch Super 7500 WR7DC+.  From what you've all said it is not a proper match for this car.  I'll swap them with either non-resistor Bosch or NGK plugs and see what happens.  It would be great if this simple fix solves the problem!

Dimitri
71 280SL

quote:
Originally posted by dseretakis

Its been over one and a half years now that my 280 SL will not run.  It started when I was driving home and the car just stalled and would not restart.  I pushed it into the garage of my apartment building where it has sat eversince.  I figured it was probably ignition related as there was fuel coming from the fuel line going to the intake manifold when I disconnected the line.  I did not however measure the rate of flow.  I proceeded then to replace the points, rotor, cap, condenser, wires, plugs and got the car to start, run poorly from anywhere from 15 secs to up to 2 minutes and then stall again.  I gave up and left the car that way for 1.5 years.   I figured that maybe the ignition coil was bad so I replaced it today.  Again no change.  It runs poorly for 30 secs to a couple of minutes while giving it a good amount of gas and then stalls.  I'm at a loss.  I don't wan't to just keep replacing parts.  I'm starting to suspect the fuel system again.  Any ideas? Thanks,
Dimitri


Longtooth

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2008, 23:31:57 »
Demitri -

Dominant symptoms remain the same:

1. Car died while driving along with no prior starting or other engine symptoms.

2. It starts but runs irregularly and only briefly with careful throttle control, then dies again within 15 sec's to 2 minutes.

3. When started, it spews white/grey smoke profusely.

The white/grey smoke indicates incomplete combustion.. either too much fuel, too little air, insufficient ignition spark (not likely if any spark at all), timing, or valves not operating properly.

Whatever occurred happened while driving along.... so it's something that slipped, broke, or wore out beyond ability to remain within operating range.

It starts, so you're getting spark... that eliminates plugs, coil, ignition circuit as probable source.  I run Bosch resistor plugs in my 250SL... always have... no problems.

You've moved distributor body back and forth to change timing and it still won't stay started.  That eliminates timing issues as probable source.

You've checked ignition wiring order and for fouled plugs.... no issues found.

You've checked fuel delivery from back to front... no issues with insufficient fuel.... and since it starts but runs irradically, fuel delivery to cylinder intake isn't the primary suspect...

... unless your injection timing is screwed up... would require injection pump overhaul and possible rebuild if this is the case.... would fit the symptom of car dying while running along (something in the pump (injection cam? cam bearing?) broke, slipped, or wore too far), but not the symptom of white/grey smoke emissions while starting. ...

... or unless the injection pump's delivering too much fuel per stroke.... which would fit both symptoms.... something broke, slipped, or wore beyond range, and white/grey smoke.

Valve seating or opening/closing is still open to possible source of problem, however.  Valves (intake and exhaust) are normally closed (by valve springs)... they open when the rocker arm forces them open... overhead cam direct to rocker arm actuates the rocker arms... pushing "down" on the valve stem, opening them the "required distance" from valve seats.  The "required distance" of valve opening is adjusted by adjusting the clearance between cam lobe and rocker.  The clearance is adjusted at the "ball pin head"... i.e. the rocker arm standoffs opposite the valves... on the respective rocker arms.... when cam's lobe at a given valve is 180 degrees opposed to the rocker's sliding (contact) surface to cam.

If cam lobes or rocker arm surfaces are worn (or as they wear), the clearance between them effectively increases, and valves don't open as far... they open later, and less, and close early. When ignition timing's set at spec (8 degr BTDC at starter speed or at idle, without vacuum) a later opening intake valve means ignition is relatively even more advanced than 8 degr... which shouldn't cause incomplete or inefficient combustion, but will cause the piston to be resisted longer during the exhaust stroke.  This would cause a reduction in hp, but otherwise doesn't fit the symptoms.

As the valve seats wear in (if they do, as on a new head rebuild with new valves & seats), the opposite occurs... there's not enough clearance ("too tight" - cam to rocker) so the valves open early, more, and close later.  This means on the intake stroke the intake valve opens earlier than fuel injection timing requires, and ignition occurs relatively later wrt valve's being closed on the compression stroke... in effect a more retarded ignition wrt intake valve closure (normally closes at 11 degr BTDC with normal ignition at 8 degr BTDC ... with ignition advanced more with vacuum at higher rpm's).  The exhaust valves open earlier as well... meaning an additional portion of the relatively later ignition combustion products are being exhausted before combustion is as complete as it would otherwise be.  This fits with the incomplete combustion symptom, so remains a possible problem source.

Parenthetically, after my engine was rebuilt (long block), at about 3k miles the engine began to be hard starting and ran rough at idle... and after checking timing (gap, dwell, & timing hadn't changed much at all), I ran a compression test and found cylinder #1 was slightly lower than the others, but not enough to account for the rough idle and hard starting issue (it had been far, far worse before I had the engine rebuilt and at that time it had no hardstarting issues and didn't run rough at idle).  So... I took it into the MB shop and they found valves had worn in on the seats and valves needed adjustment for having been "too tight".... i.e. I only mention this because a small amount of wear-in on the valves and seats has a definite effect on rough idle with no other apparent symptoms of a problem.  It turns out I was supposed to take the car back for a valve adjustment at 1500 miles and again at 3k miles for precisely this reason.... which I'd forgotten about.  

If a valve spring breaks, there's nothing holding the valve normally closed, so it's always going to be open a little (more or less) ... and the rocker's will open them more perhaps but in effect you'ed have too little compression on such a valve.  You've indicated that measured compression is even on all cylinders... so that eliminates any broken valve springs as possible source.

Have you checked &/or played with the idle air screw on the venturi?... maybe the passage got clogged somehow.  Before you adjust it make sure you mark where it is to start with though.  

Frankly, you have far, far more patience and persistance than I would have under the circumstance.  I'd have checked (not necessarily changing) timing, compression, venturi idle air adjustment and operation, fuel linkages, plug's gap and condition, and decommissioned the cooling water thermostat (so it's functioning as if cooling water temp was hot (> 68C) to see if it was actually inop at starting temps (not just the themostat's rod, but the mechanism the rod actuates to enrich fuel and air during starting temperatures).  If I could find no problems with any of those items I'd have had the car toted to the shop... though since I'm now retired I would have perhaps also taken the time to check the valve tappet clearances.

In my experiences on the car's I've ever worked on / played around with engines on... VW's, Porsches, GM 327's, if the car will start but won't hold an idle it's either been due to wiring (improper order of spark plug wires from roter to cylinders), timing or fuel / air mixture... but I've never had an opportunity to play around with a fuel injected engine and I'm loath to play around with the one on my 250SL... too chicken.  The W113's fuel / air mixture at starting tempertures is controlled by the mechanism actuated by the Cold Start Thermostat... just because the thermostat works (rod moves appropriately with temperature) doesn't mean the mechanism it's actuating is working properly.




Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
The 6% Club - Best of the Best
'02 SL500 Sport

seattle_Jerry

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2008, 04:21:46 »
Did you ever clean the gas tank, blow the lines clean, new fuel filter up front and in the tank etc? I had a van that ran ok parked but driving caused a blockage in the fuel delivery from gunk in the system.

You could be getting decent flow parked until the junk gets sucked into an orifice someplace. When the engine gets turned off it floats away again.

Stabbin in the dark

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2008, 08:32:12 »
Well, it's 3 months later and I've been able to get back to my car.  The first thing I did was change out my resistor Bosch plugs with non-resistor NGK ones.  This solved a big part of my problem.  The car now runs smoothly on all 6 cylinders rather than 3 or 4.  The car will however not continue to run unless I keep giving it gas and it still puts out a profuse amount of grey/tan smoke.  I don't think this smoke is due to a coolant/head gasket leak as I've witnessed this before on another car and the smoke is of a different quality.  In addition to that my compression is good and consistent between all 6 cylinders.  It seems to be a fuel delivery issue.  I don't think it is a flower pot thing since the inside of my tank is pristine looking.  Another member of this board sent me a personal message suggesting that my WRD might be stuck in the warm position.  I'm thinking about going down this path and checking the device.  

How does one go about checking the function of this device without disassembling it altogether?
Dimitri

ja17

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2008, 21:04:13 »
Hello,

Try running it for a short time without the radiator cap on. In this way your cooling system will not pressurize. See if the smoke issue goes away temporarily. Rich fuel mixture can also cause smoke. Possibly a stuck injector, stuck intake starting valve. Lastly a ruptured automatic transmission modulator diaphram will cause whitish smoke. Transmission fluid  will show up on #6 spark plug also.

It would be a good time to remove all the spark plugs and read them.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

dsayars

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2008, 21:52:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by dseretakis

Well, it's 3 months later and I've been able to get back to my car.  The first thing I did was change out my resistor Bosch plugs with non-resistor NGK ones.  This solved a big part of my problem.  The car now runs smoothly on all 6 cylinders rather than 3 or 4.  The car will however not continue to run unless I keep giving it gas and it still puts out a profuse amount of grey/tan smoke.  I don't think this smoke is due to a coolant/head gasket leak as I've witnessed this before on another car and the smoke is of a different quality.  In addition to that my compression is good and consistent between all 6 cylinders.  It seems to be a fuel delivery issue.  I don't think it is a flower pot thing since the inside of my tank is pristine looking.  Another member of this board sent me a personal message suggesting that my WRD might be stuck in the warm position.  I'm thinking about going down this path and checking the device.  

How does one go about checking the function of the WRD device without disassembling it altogether?
Dimitri



Just remove the two screws that hold the thermostat down--the thermostat's the tower that sticks up with the coolant lines going to it. You should feel the thermostat lift lift a little under spring pressure as you loosen the screws. If it doesn't, the piston below is stuck in warm position, then you have to extract it. But first see if it (the piston) moves up and down against the spring. If it does, it's ok.

dseretakis

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Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2008, 23:45:00 »
Thanks, I'll try these suggestions.  My car is a manual shift so the automatic transmission modulator diaphragm won't apply.
Dimitri

quote:
Originally posted by ja17

Hello,

Try running it for a short time without the radiator cap on. In this way your cooling system will not pressurize. See if the smoke issue goes away temporarily. Rich fuel mixture can also cause smoke. Possibly a stuck injector, stuck intake starting valve. Lastly a ruptured automatic transmission modulator diaphram will cause whitish smoke. Transmission fluid  will show up on #6 spark plug also.

It would be a good time to remove all the spark plugs and read them.


dseretakis

  • Guest
Re: non running 280SL
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2008, 23:50:20 »
Thanks, I already removed the whole WRD.  I'm waiting for a new thermostat since I question the function of the old one and besides I may of ruined it by accidentally pulling the thrust rod out.
Dimitri

quote:
Originally posted by dsayars

Quote
Originally posted by dseretakis


Just remove the two screws that hold the thermostat down--the thermostat's the tower that sticks up with the coolant lines going to it. You should feel the thermostat lift lift a little under spring pressure as you loosen the screws. If it doesn't, the piston below is stuck in warm position, then you have to extract it. But first see if it (the piston) moves up and down against the spring. If it does, it's ok.