Author Topic: compression question  (Read 21924 times)

merrill

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Re: compression question
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2007, 09:08:01 »
Rodd,
I will post photos of the motor when it is returned to me.
If it looks anything like the photos on the metric motors web site i will be happy.

The fuel injection pump that Hans at H&R rebuilt looks amazing.  I assume like new.  Also, the pump shaft rotates smoothly - no clicking -  I asked hans about this and apparantly the pump shaft wil click when it gets a plunger that is not moving smoothly and or stuck


matt

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

doitwright

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Re: compression question
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2007, 12:55:09 »
This forum has to be the best source for information on the 113 cars.  I have had mine since last October and find the info hear addicting.  It is my 1st 113.  To make a long story short, I probably would not have bought this particular car knowing what I know now.  It was totally misrepresented by the seller in many respects.  After driving it home 800 miles with no problems and adding a quart of oil along the way,  I took it to my local independant Mercedes mechanic for an inspection.  He seemed to be very knowledgable about these particular models and actually had 2 others in his shop for service while I was there.  He went through my car and came back with a list of recommended services.  Included was a tune-up, trans service, and replace all belts and hoses.  I asked him to do a compression check to get an indication of how healthy the engine was which he agreed was a good idea.  He came back to me with the following readings:

Cylinder 1 - 150
Cylinder 2 - 130
Cylinder 3 - 130
Cylinder 4 - 140
Cylinder 5 - 95 - (goes over 200 with oil in cylinder and valve clearance)
Cylinder 6 - 150

He says you will need to rebuild the engine and he can do it between $8-9000.00

This news is of course very depressing to me so I start exploring my options.  Even thought of throwing in a can of "Engine Restore".  95 in cylinder 5.  Um, not good right?  One option was to find another motor perhaps even from a 280se.  So I find a guy locally who has a 280se for sale which he says runs well.  Now keep in mind my engine also seems to run well.  I do not see any smoke when it starts or is running.  I decide that before I will buy another engine, I will do a compression check on this possible replacement motor.

I go to the parts store and purchase a shiny new compression tester with the 14mm fitting.  Since I have not used one of these in a very long time,  I decide to try it out on my own 280SL 1st.  I start the engine (after battery charge).  It starts right up after sitting since November to let it warm up.  I read here that the compression test should be done on a warm engine.  Again no smoke.  After about a 10 minute warmup, I take out all the plugs, disconnect the coil wire (forgot to remove the fuel pump fuse) and start my test.  Here is what I came up with:

Cylinder 1 - 180
Cylinder 2 - 170
Cylinder 3 - 170
Cylinder 4 - 180
Cylinder 5 - 135
Cylinder 6 - 184

I call the mechanic who thinks he did his test cold.  He also asks if the car sat for a long while.  I think it did.  He says when a car sits, one cylinder will have its valve open whick allows humidity to enter the combustion chamber and may have caused the rings to stick.  The compression differences are relatively consistant across all cylinders but now I am thinking that 135 is allot better than 95 and I may just stay with what I have.

Do you think it would be worth while to put some diesel fuel (I believe it is fuel and not oil correct?) in cylinder 5 an let it soak for a while with the hope of freeing up a potentially stuck ring?
Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Originally Light Ivory - Now Anthracite Gray Metallic

al_lieffring

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Re: compression question
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2007, 13:27:48 »
quote:
Originally posted by doitwright



Do you think it would be worth while to put some diesel fuel (I believe it is fuel and not oil correct?) in cylinder 5 an let it soak for a while with the hope of freeing up a potentially stuck ring?



Something like Marvel Mystery Oil would be a better choice than just fuel oil. Will it help? provably not, but it couldn't hurt. Be sure to change the oil after letting the rings soak before you drive the car.

The low compression on only cylinder #5 is often related to the design of the cooling jackets in the M130 2.8 litre motor block whether it is from a sedan or a SL. The bore on #5 and sometimes also cylinder #4 will wear much faster than the other cylinders.

It is just as expensive to rebuild an engine that is completly worn out as to rebuild one with just one weak cylinder. Drive the car for a while and see if the oil consumption is something that you can live with. (oil is only $2.50 a quart, a rebuilt engine $8,000.00



66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

glennard

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Re: compression question
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2007, 16:47:12 »
Frank, Would do a five minute 'Motor Flush' ( a quart added, then run engine for five minutes.  Change oil and filter.)  If you have the valve cover off, make sure the oil distribution tube( 10 mm tube running the length of the cam shaft) has no blocked holes in it.  It is secured by a cap screw and some clamps.  The tube has holes for the corresponding bearing and rocker arms, etc.  Number 6 gets the crud!

glennard

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Re: compression question
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2007, 16:54:49 »
Frank, Sounds like I'm due some attribution from your 'mechanic'.  My line is:  "I've been in this ( insert type business ) for 42 years, and this is the worst case of ( insert problem type) I've ever seen.  It is going to take me a little longer to fix, but I think I can do it- just for you."   Good for at least 50% more.

J. Huber

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Re: compression question
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2007, 22:33:17 »
If it comes to this: Unless you really like your mechanic (and get to ride in his new boat once in a while), I'd consider letting Metric Motors rebuild it instead. Might even be less and they are seasoned in this motor.

James
63 230SL
James
63 230SL

doitwright

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Re: compression question
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2007, 00:22:07 »
Thanks to all for your comments - and humor.  I have a can of the Motor Flush.  Have not used it yet because I wanted some opinions of the "mechanic in a can" possibilities.  Two people I talked to (not professional mechanics) said they would not use motor flush in a good runing engine since it may wash out some of the ?(cannot think of the name) that fill the grooves in the cylinder walls and keeps the compression as good as it is.  I am not sure I buy that argument either.  I plan to try the Motor Flush followed by the Marvel Mystery oil in cylinder 5, then do an oil change and see where I stand.  I suspect worst case is no improvement.
Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Originally Light Ivory - Now Anthracite Gray Metallic

glennard

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Re: compression question
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2007, 02:31:24 »
Frank, If I had 135 to 184 lbs range, I'd expect at least 50K more miles without a problem.  Keep the valves adjusted to .003 and .007,  change the oil and filter every 3K,  adjust to proper idle mix, adjust to start on first crank revolution. Get new mechanic(i. e., Pagoda SL Group).  Pagoda Paradise!

merrill

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Re: compression question
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2007, 11:41:18 »
Frank,
for what it is worth, metric just finished my 230 sl longblock rebuild for $5,700 plus $300 shipping.

If you decide to pull the motor your self you could save a bundle.

You might try sending an e-mail to mike at metric motors.
he is very nice and will probably give you additional advice.

matt

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

dasvinger

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Re: compression question
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2007, 22:46:31 »
quote:
Originally posted by doitwright

This forum has to be the best source for information on the 113 cars.  I have had mine since last October and find the info hear addicting.  It is my 1st 113.  To make a long story short, I probably would not have bought this particular car knowing what I know now.  It was totally misrepresented by the seller in many respects.  After driving it home 800 miles with no problems and adding a quart of oil along the way,  I took it to my local independant Mercedes mechanic for an inspection.  He seemed to be very knowledgable about these particular models and actually had 2 others in his shop for service while I was there.  He went through my car and came back with a list of recommended services.  Included was a tune-up, trans service, and replace all belts and hoses.  I asked him to do a compression check to get an indication of how healthy the engine was which he agreed was a good idea.  He came back to me with the following readings:

Cylinder 1 - 150
Cylinder 2 - 130
Cylinder 3 - 130
Cylinder 4 - 140
Cylinder 5 - 95 - (goes over 200 with oil in cylinder and valve clearance)
Cylinder 6 - 150

He says you will need to rebuild the engine and he can do it between $8-9000.00

This news is of course very depressing to me so I start exploring my options.  Even thought of throwing in a can of "Engine Restore".  95 in cylinder 5.  Um, not good right?  One option was to find another motor perhaps even from a 280se.  So I find a guy locally who has a 280se for sale which he says runs well.  Now keep in mind my engine also seems to run well.  I do not see any smoke when it starts or is running.  I decide that before I will buy another engine, I will do a compression check on this possible replacement motor.

I go to the parts store and purchase a shiny new compression tester with the 14mm fitting.  Since I have not used one of these in a very long time,  I decide to try it out on my own 280SL 1st.  I start the engine (after battery charge).  It starts right up after sitting since November to let it warm up.  I read here that the compression test should be done on a warm engine.  Again no smoke.  After about a 10 minute warmup, I take out all the plugs, disconnect the coil wire (forgot to remove the fuel pump fuse) and start my test.  Here is what I came up with:

Cylinder 1 - 180
Cylinder 2 - 170
Cylinder 3 - 170
Cylinder 4 - 180
Cylinder 5 - 135
Cylinder 6 - 184

I call the mechanic who thinks he did his test cold.  He also asks if the car sat for a long while.  I think it did.  He says when a car sits, one cylinder will have its valve open whick allows humidity to enter the combustion chamber and may have caused the rings to stick.  The compression differences are relatively consistant across all cylinders but now I am thinking that 135 is allot better than 95 and I may just stay with what I have.

Do you think it would be worth while to put some diesel fuel (I believe it is fuel and not oil correct?) in cylinder 5 an let it soak for a while with the hope of freeing up a potentially stuck ring?

The compression readings are not to far out of MB specs.for high/low cylinder difference.If it runs smoothly and doesn't smoke,or use oil I would keep driving.If oil consumption goes up you can probably change to a single grade oil and improve things.
'67 250SL White/Blue/Bamboo int

doitwright

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Re: compression question
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2007, 22:47:15 »
Merrill,  Does your rebuilt motor look like what they show on the website?  If I go with the rebuild route, I would most likely go with Metric.  The have the parts and the know-how.  For now, I will follow Glenard's suggestion and ride it until it starts to act up.  Like I am sure allot of us are, everytime I see something that needs attention, I want to make it perfect.  Then I have to say to myself: "Woooh Cowboy. Remember you bought this car to drive and enjoy it, not turn it into a trailer queen".  Look forwrd to reading about your motor after you get it installed.

Frank K
1970 280SL
Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Originally Light Ivory - Now Anthracite Gray Metallic

merrill

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Re: compression question
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2007, 20:39:17 »
Frank,
so, my motor was just dropped off today, and yes, it actually looks better than what is on the metric motors web site.

I will take some photos and post them.

matt

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

Ziggy

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Re: compression question
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2008, 14:23:24 »
Are you supposed to do the compression test with a warm or cold engine?
I just did a check with an air temperature of around 90 and engine around 125 degrees, all cylinders were around 10 (bar) while the test I did half a year ago with the engine around 45 degrees had 3 cylinders only around 8 bar. Used the same gauge... about 1,5-2 seconds of cranking. Which reading would be right?

Rolf

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Re: compression question
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2008, 15:37:23 »
The BBB states that the compression should be measured at normal working temp ( cooling water temp 20- 80 degrees C. and with the throttle valve open.

glennard

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Re: compression question
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2008, 16:26:36 »
All plugs out, engine warm, butterfly open.  Crank until the gauge stops going up.  First rev- 30 psi, 2nd- 60 psi, 3rd- 100, 4th- 125, 5th -150 psi, 6th rev- same as 5th. or something like this.  If you have low one(under 150) squirt some 40W oil in the plug hole and try again.  If it goes up, it's the rings.

Benz Dr.

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Re: compression question
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2008, 21:46:20 »
I only do cold compression tests for the most part. It's what you have when you're trying to start the car and if it's isn't enough to do that, the rest doesn't matter very much. The difference between cold and hot won't be very much in most cases.
What you may not know is that the compression is a lot lower in a running engine - maybe 100 to 110 PSI on an engine that's 170 when testing with a compression tester. When testing we mormally look at the maximum amount that attainable. The first pump usually will give you about 90 - 100 PSI and that pretty close to the running pressures while driving. If you had 160 PSI while driving it would ping like crazy if it even ran at all.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

glennard

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Re: compression question
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2008, 06:20:03 »
Ditto Benz Dr.  You want 'conditions' to be the same for each annual(?) test, all cylinders above 120 psi, all cylinders within 10% of each other, etc.  Do it twice for practice  The dynamics of your particular pressure gauge will dictate the buildup of readings.  The cylinder pressure goes from vacuum to max each 2 revs, but the gauge check valve takes about 5 complete 4 cycles to capture a level reading - thus the visible jumps on the gauge.  Good time to check the valve clearance, too.  And, make sure the oil tube holes are clear.  And ad infinitum--------Then it is PPP  Purring Pagoda Paradise