labor cost

[Benz Dr.]

What can I say, when it comes straight from the horses' mouth.

[Garry]

Seems like the car parts makers are the perfect producers.  Maybe the highly audited and US FAA controlled quality in the aircraft industry could learn form the motor industry you think.

I am just a sceptic and have got cynical in old age about betting on the horses

[benzportland]

This year I had my head rebuilt along with distributor and ignition (points system) all hoses and intake valves and a few other items replaced including the water pump, and according to my invoice this took about 35 hours and cost $2,100.  Very experienced, reputable independent who provides a warranty for all his work.

The spendy part was the driver door.  The window was out of adjustment, the lock did not work, and the door itself set in too far when closed.  Turns out it was removed for some mysterious reason not related to collision damage, and it takes forever to set them back in correctly.  They did a great job, cost of that was a bit over $1,000.00.  And, the interior door panel is still fairly rough with a large hole punched in on the side for a speaker.  [:0]

[Benz Dr.]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

Gee, I don't know how this morphed this way.

If anyone thinks that a Bosch part in a yellow box is somehow different than the identical box in a Mercedes box, I would suggest one doesn't know the automotive industry or parts industry very well.  This is true for new parts, such as relays, and for remanufactured parts, such as starters and alternators.  This same logic extends across first, second and third tier suppliers as well.

Those wire set issues people speak about are not fair comparisons to anything--many years ago those $35 Bosch sets you buy in places were determined only to physically fit, not to be the right set.  Yes they fail because they are not the right part for our car.  Some marketing moron simply figured that since they fit, put the application in the data base.  They don't have the right wire or the right ends.  Don't be surprised when they don't work or fail prematurely--it isn't the right part!  You can get the correct parts--I have them--and I got them 3rd party because the the correct parts were NLA from MB at the time.  Thankfully some Beru dealer was able to put them all together.

If someone is selling reject parts, then that is a different story entirely and speaks to the ethics of the company.  If someone is selling counterfeit parts, (pacific rim parts made to look like originals but substandard in quality, and branded with illegal labels) that also is another issue entirely.

At a recent trip to the Kennedy Space Center, an astronaut addressed the comical and oft-repeated urban legend of how the moon landing was done on a Hollywood sound stage.  "Yes", he said, "the moon landing could have been faked.  But it was simply easier to just go to the moon."

Well, similarly, in an assembly line fashion of remanufacturing, when a specific alternator is going through the process of rebuilding, the person rebuilding it rebuilds it according to the spec of that part, not of where the part is going or what color box it's going in; they don't even know that.  It's simply easier to adhere to one quality standard for one part than to try and use a "cheaper bearing" on the 3rd party part, or a higher quality diode on the Mercedes part.  It makes no sense and it IS NOT what happens.

Just to confirm my suspicions, I also placed a call to Bilstein.  If the part number stamped onto the shock is the same, there is only one part-quality; they don't make different part qualities.  They did offer however, that when you buy their shocks on the aftermarket market (the market that Dan Caron is talking about), the warranty is lifetime.  If the shock comes through MB, it is whatever MB offers on it.  Bilstein does offer different shocks for OEM and for aftermarket--the operative word being different shocks, not different quality.  The aftermarket are usually indicated as Heavy Duty; the OEM is usually indicated as comfort.  So, you might have a slight difference in the road-feel or manners of a Bilstein bought through MB versus an aftermarket; but you will still have Bilstein quality if that's what you want.  When a manufacturer's name is on the box they are ever mindful of quality.

I also placed a call to a good friend of mine, a quality-control consultant to Mahle of all people.  Yes, they make pistons, rings, etc. in Michigan (St. Johns and Muskegon) not just in Brazil.  He confirmed that there is a manufacturing spec for a part; not for how the part might be distributed after manufacture.  They often don't know this on the factory floor.

At the recent Meadowbrook Concours, two members of the Classic Center team were on the phone furiously trying to solve a problem.  The 190D they were sponsoring with Motor Trend (read about that here: http://blogs.motortrend.com/6278004/editorial/mts-old-tech-to-bluetec-mercedes-benz-diesel-across-america-tour-leg-2-day-2/index.html ) got stuck in Oklahoma City.  What did they do?  They got on the phone with the local MBCA President, and he and other members of the local sections' diesel-junkies got the car running with their combined knowledge and parts.  This is not a condemnation of the Classic Center in any way, (they are good guys) but validation that they do NOT have all the parts, and they do NOT have all the answers!  In this case it was well experienced shade-tree mechanics like you and I with extra parts and a lot of knowledge that got them on their way.  Yes there was a CC mechanic along the way but he doesn't have all the answers; when he "called home", "home" called the MBCA.

Q: Why does the Classic Center send the fuel injection pumps to Gus at Pacific Fuel for repair? (San Francisco)

A: Because he's closer than Hans at H&R! (NY)  Actually, Hans at H&R does do work for the CC too--as well as dealers all over the world!  You can buy a pump or a rebuild from MB or from Hans or Gus.  Either of them may get the job/work anyway.

Yes, overall, manufacturing quality has done downhill.  Bosch has factories all over the world, and what was once made in Germany is now made in India, Brazil, Mexico, Czech Republic...even those parts destined for the gray box and either Mercedes cars on the line or parts to me sold at a dealer.

Did I mention that K&K's steel body panels are BETTER than MB's original or NOS? (on parts that K&K makes)  Yes, Tim Kidder stamps them out of heavier gauge galvalume.  That's better than plain old steel.  What would you want on your car?

It's great to support the Classic Center.  But they don't have all the answers all the time.  They don't have all the parts all the time.  Working on, restoring and maintaining a car like ours takes more than one source, no matter who that source may be.

Gee Mike, you might get those guys upset out there in Cal. talking like that. However, I can't imagine MBNA caring too much about anything we say or anything some sectional MBCA pres might say. I wonder if they have lurkers  checking in on us once in a while?......

[Mike Kunz]

You might be surprised to learn what we read and perhaps even more surprised on what we do not comment on, especially when it's nonsense.

Mike Kunz
MB Classic Center

[Benz Dr.]

Well Mike, ( not the Mike well all know - this Mike is from the CC ) since you did read this and did in fact comment that it's all nonsense, maybe you'd be so kind as to point out what exactly you're talking about.

Hey everybody! We're on the map. Maybe the CC will sponsor out next event. After all, we all drive their product.

[J. Huber]

Hey Mr. Kunz! I for one am glad to know you are out there - if only to witness the passion that many of us have for our cars. I look forward to visiting the MB Classic Center sometime.

[Cees Klumper]

quote:Originally posted by Mike Kunz

You might be surprised to learn what we read and perhaps even more surprised on what we do not comment on, especially when it's nonsense.

Mike Kunz
MB Classic Center

I hope that includes our "list for NLA parts lobby" topic!

We should all be grateful to people like Dan Caron and The Classic Center for keeping us shade-tree mechanics (well, I certainly am and most of us probably are) on the road ...

[seattle_Jerry]

I'll add fuel to the fire... I spent 15 years in manufacturing. In my case it was plastic injection molded parts. We manufactured for Boeing, in their tooling, parts for their various planes.

We also sold directly to the airlines, as an OEM, the same parts. We paid Boeing a royalty fee for the use of their Die. It was the same plastic, same inspection schedule, same tool etc. Actually we would just do big production runs and all the parts would come out of the same bin.

I could however see how a part could be offered for a car at a reduced price over a factory part made from the same tooling but at a reduced inspection schedule. It is the customer that dictates the inspection frequency and which aspects need to be inspected.The FAA has a hand in this as well for planes.

Mercedes might require 100% inspection and measurement of 10 key features where as an OEM part might get 70% of the parts inspected and measurement of 5 features. There would be a significant labor savings through the reduced inspection level with only a small decrease in quality as a few sub-par parts would slip through.

I also know that way back in the day and probably still now there were unscrupulous molders that would either make additional stock on a customers own tool then sell it on the side or make an additional tool while they were making one for a customer

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by seattle_Jerry
...unscrupulous molders that would either make additional stock on a customers own tool then sell it on the side or make an additional tool while they were making one for a customer

...UNSCRUPULOUS being the operative word; but illegal being a better choice.

Someone I know through a friend is in the business of making "licensed" merchandise for the Detroit Red Wings, The Woodward Dream Cruise, etc.--you know, T-shirts and items like that.  The "license" is one of those hologram stickers they have to buy and put on every piece that goes out the door.  My guess is those stickers are not chicken feed.  I've heard that some of that merchandise goes out "the back door" without the sticker...I also heard that they were caught once doing just that.  Those that hold valuable trademarks protect them vigilantly.

I wonder if some items available on the market to us, such as the reproduction wheel covers, are made that way as Jerry indicates?  Is it possible that the contractor who has the dieset for those wheel covers puts some inferior material (those who have seen the OEM MB units with the holograms on the back and those who have bought the repros know exactly what I'm talking about)into the press and stamps out some cheap units and sells them out the back door?  Or maybe they are simply copied in PacRim or Eastern European nations?

[mcama]

Where does one begin in replying to the posts of the past week? The attitudes of some of these posts can easily be perceived to be rather juvenile in nature, with leanings towards hostility, patronization, and lastly and largely assumption. I would have expected a greater interest in the sharing of knowledge with an open mind. Or at the minimum, the willingness to hear a differing point of view that is based on experience without the automatic dismissal of that perspective.

Furthermore, it is curious to see posts getting edited, in which the edits amount to a great change in tone and information. All the while, these edits are made without explanation to the community at large. Why is that? What changed in those perceived "truths?"

In the end folks will believe what they want to. For those that are on the fence with regards to this issue, I invite you to perform your own empirical testing, be it on the car or in the lab.

In my 20+ years, more than half of that as a respected professional and NOT a shadetree, the other ten working as an apprentice to various MB and Bosch factory and dealer trained technicians, I have seen enough evidence to convince me that OEMs are often quite different than OE in quality. I could reference my relevant mechanical engineering studies in manufacturing, QC, materials science, and other related coursework that provides me with the knowledge to substantiate my claims on a technical level, but the truth of the matter is that my findings in the real world of day to day working on these cars speaks louder. I have performed studies on my own cars as well as on those of clients' whom are Genuine parts only vs. mostly OEM. Most of the OEM users find greater frequency in the rate of their OEM parts failing as well as a poorer performing (as a whole, not only in 0-60 times) automobile as a result.

The whole is only as good as the sum of its parts. Some folks are into these cars for only the enjoyment of aesthetics and pride of ownership. Others are out for the experience to be garnered from an example that functions as the engineers who designed them originally intended. As I said in a earlier post, everyone's priorities are different.

Hearing directly from MB, the true "horse's mouth" in this matter, that OEM standards are often lesser than those of the OE adds further credence to my findings.

In the end, do your own research. Relying on information posted to an internet forum has no guarantee of being the whole truth regardless of who is posting it. Without your own personal verification, it is only hearsay.

[TheEngineer]

Hello Mike Kunz
MB Classic Center
I, for one, am very satisfied with you as a supplier! You got parts for me I couldn't get from my local MB dealer and at a lower cost too! Thank you very much! And I'll be back!

[seattle_Jerry]

As far as Asian knockoffs we figured about a year from when a product was introduced until it was copied/reverse engineered (assuming it was worthy of being copied to begin with). Customers would have to figure that into their calculations for consumer products when deciding if a product was viable.

The molds could easily run $100K so thats a lot to sell just to break even.

Another thing customers dictate, which may come into play with OEM parts, is the level of reground plastic in the part.

During the manufacturing process you get rejects. They are put into a grinder and made back into little chunks which can be fed back into the machine.

Regrind is not as strong as virgin raw materials. Some customers say zero regrind (aerospace) others 20%. As the level of regrind increases the part strength/elasticity goes down.

Sometimes molders push that % to save money. Sometimes its just the guy on the factory floor who doesn't want the rejects cluttering up the factory. Unless QC is standing there when he fills the hopper, there is no way to tell what the mix is (cheaply and easily that is)

Any product that they would use to make an engine mount is pricey, so I could see them regrinding their scrap and making OEM parts with it.
The decreased physical properties.

Lots of conjecture. Mercedes would never say that OEM is the same even if it is. Thats just bad marketing. There is implied value in paying for factory parts/dealer service and it is big business for them. Dealers aren't selling cars as much as future repairs, oil changes and parts.

I'm sure there are instances of inferior OEM parts just as there are products that are exactly the same. Only with the hands on experience you guys have had can it be determined when it is worth paying factory prices.

[Benz Dr.]

Thre difference bewteen the ' horse's mouth ' and the  ' horse's ass ' is determined by point your of view.

 Some MB parts are clearly better and better to use. I once bought a few hood stars that seemed like a good deal. After closer inspection they were cheap knock offs. You couild see the casting marks on the base of the star. Original hood stars are perfect. If I was putting one on an old crappy 114 I wouldn't worry about it. If it was a nice 220SE Cab I'd get the original star.
 So much of this depends on the aplication. Ballo makes brake rotors for newer MB cars. They're just as good as the original at a lower price. I could use all original parts and maybe add 25 % or more to the total cost of the job or I could use various different suppliers and save my customer money and make more myself. I could replace that fuel distributor for over 2K or I could sell him a rebuilt one with a 3 year waranty for 625.00  Either way I'd make about the same on the part but which customer is going to be more happy? In some cases the list price of a dealer part is worth more than the car. This is a matter of money for most people.

So, it comes down to using a variety of new, used, OEM, aftermarket, reproduction and original parts on the jobs I do. Each job is different but the main objective is to produce a safe and relable car at a fair price while making enough to keep the doors open. The only way I could use all original MB parts on every job and still keep my doors open was is if I was a MB dealer.

[seattle_Jerry]

Good point Dan. I never thought about dealers getting factory parts at a lower price than everyone else, making it hard for the little guy to use original parts and be price competitive.

[seattle_Jerry]

To get this hijacked thread back on track...Do you really want to use a guy to rebuild an engine that doesn't have enough prior experience with it to know how many hours it will take? How much money will you really be saving in the long run?

[TheEngineer]

My engine was rebuilt before I bought the car. The pistons are Mahle, first oversize. The head is surfaced uneven, the machining is not parallel to the top and machined down too far, below the 84.2 mm dimension. I ended up replacing the head. The engine wasn't put together quite right: There is a bolt forward in the head that requires a sealing washer, otherwise you have an oil leak. The bolts that hold the A/C bracket need the threads sealed, or else there is another oil leak. The seal at the front of the crankshaft must be the right part, otherwise it leaks at the outside diameter. It did. But look at the bright side: If the engine wouldn't have leaked so much, the car wouldn't have been for sale. Go ahead - have him rebuild your engine, he needs to practice.

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by theengineer

My engine was rebuilt before I bought the car.  Go ahead - have him rebuild your engine, he needs to practice.

Pete, you left out the proper emoticon with that last sentence so here it is: