IP Pump & Timing

[bpossel]

Long Thread!

I finally got my engine started !  However, having some issues getting the timing set correctly for a smooth running engine and smooth shifts .

Here is the current situation...

When I got my rebuilt engine back from Metric Motors, they said it was set to TDC.  On the crank shaft pulley, the timing pointer was directly set on "0".  I didnt remove the valve cover to confirm.  I then installed the distributor.  Afterwards I rotated the crank to 20 degrees ATDC (20 degrees as marked on the crank pulley), made sure the IP Pump was adjusted properly (marks aligned), and then installed the IP Pump.

The engine started right up, but ran at 1500 rpms.  As I tried to adjust per specs, the engine wanted to die out.  So today, as I reread many of our threads and also the Haynes and BBB, I came to the conclusion that my distributor was not installed correctly.  The vacuum cell was sitting at 12 o'clock vs 1 o'clock (I have a '71 Automatic).  So I removed the valve cover and rotated the engine to TDC, cam lobes on #1 were at 10 and 2 o'clock and the mark on the cam was aligned.  I then looked at the crank shaft pulley and it was sitting on 5 degrees ATDC mark on the crank.  I reinstalled the distributor and now the vacuum cell is sitting ~at the 1 o'clock position.

So, does this mean that I installed the IP Pump at only 15 degrees ATDC???







Thank you!
Bob  

[Naj ✝︎]

quote:Why is it that when the cam is at TDC the crank pulley is not at "0"???

I think this is more of a concern than the distributor sitting at 1 o'clock. I would talk to Metric to see what they have to say.

naj

[bpossel]

Hi Naj,

I'll contact them tomorrow.

Do you think I need to pull my IP Pump and reinstall it since it looks like I installed it at only 15 vs 20 degrees?

What would installing the pump at 15 vs 20 do to fuel, idle, etc...?  Can I compensate, adjust to work aound this?  Comments?

Thanks,
Bob

[merrill]

Bob,

I guess it is possible to be out of sync.
unfortunately the only way to be real sure is to remove the valve cover and then turn the crank till it is at zero, cam timing marks align and also the distro should be pointing to the number 1 spark plug hash mark.

then rotate crank till 20 deg atdc.  ( this you already know.)

At this point, I know it sucks would be to pull the ip and verify the timing.  

note: once you get is all back together then set the timing using your timing light.

[bpossel]

Hi Matt,

I just read your post from last year where you ran into the similar issue.

Is this what you did, basically disregard the crank marks when setting in the ip pump?  So, this would have meant that you were basically off the scale on your crank pulley at 25 degrees ATDC when yo installed your ip?

Please let me know what you did.

Also, what did Mike at Metric say about this when you talked to him?

Thanks for your help!
Bob

[merrill]

Bob,
no, my timing ended up being ok.

I sent the pump back to hans and he reset it.
I think the mixture was to lean.

I found if I disconnected the inj pump linkage and increased the amount of fuel by pushing down in the inj pump lever the changing rev's stopped.

Actually I have not completely resolved my issue,  I may pull the pump again and send it to gus at pacific to re set everything again.....

[glennard]

Bob, Should not 1),  the crank pointer be a '0'-TDC on #1(pull #1 plug and you can see the piston at top of its stroke), 2), cam shaft on mark(lobes at 10 and 2).  If not, you need the 'ole offset key' trick to get the two shafts(cam and crank) in sync. The dogs on the bottom of the distr. shaft are off center, also.  Crank goes round twice for every cam rotation???  25 degrees off on pump?++++++++++++`

[Benz Dr.]

hummmmm..... what are you guys doing? Asking these kinds of questions wouldn't fill me with too much confidence.
You set the pump to the crank 20 degrees ATDC and that's it. The cam is a totally different thing and all you need to know is if it's at number one piston and in time. Cam timming ( in small amounts ) is different than IP timming which has to be right on.

What some of you are doing is confusing the two different timmings and starting to believe that if your cam is out your pump is out too. Cam timing affects how the engine runs but you can't correct it by moving the pump which has a definate spec that must always be used.
Set the crank to zero and then turn it past that point to 20 degrees. If your cam timing is out then you may need off set keys to fix that but the only way to know for sure is with a degree wheel and a dial gage. You can't tell just by looking at it although it may give you some indication that's it's out.

[bpossel]

Dan,

The real question is...

When #1 is at TDC, cam lobes at 10 and 2, cam mark (behind sprocket)lined up with other mark,  shoudnt the crank be at "0"?

I spoke to Metric yesterday, and they assured me all was ok.  I need to install the ip pump based on 20 ATDC based on the markings on the crank, this is what I did already, so no issue.

So in summary, the answer to my question above (at least for my engine) is no.  I guess this is due to the fact that they took a little off the head during the rebuild?

Bob

[Benz Dr.]

OK, you understand how to do it and how it all works. You always time things from the crank pully and not the cam marks. The cam could be slightly off but that can only be verified by a degree wheel and a dial gage.

[bpossel]

Hi Dan,

Actually I dont (but am learning), so I appreciate your comments and support!
I only know what I know from you and other friends on this website.
Thanks,
Bob  

quote:Originally posted by Benz Dr.

OK, you understand how to do it and how it all works. You always time things from the crank pully and not the cam marks. The cam could be slightly off but that can only be verified by a degree wheel and a dial gage.

[merrill]

so, I can see how this thread can get off topic onto a cam timing issue.

IF I remember correctly, and I may end up being corrected

In General if the crank is at zero, cam marks align (more or less) AND the distro is at the #1 hash then the #1 should be on the compression strokc.  When you push over to 20 deg ATDC then the inj pump timing should be correct.

If one did not verify the the cam or the distro timing mentioned above but just pushed the crank over to 20 deg ATDC your inj pump timing could be 180 deg off.

Cam timing is something entirely different.

[Benz Dr.]

Merril,
you have it down pretty good. Want a job?

[merrill]

Dan,

whew!  Glad I had that right.

Thanks for the offer, I'm not that good as I am still working on getting my 230 running properly.

hope all is well.
Matt

[Benz Dr.]

No, not that well somtimes. Some days I feel pretty good and others it's a struggle just to get out the door. I feel like I've aged 10 years in the last two.

It's been two years this coming Sat since my operation. I hurt more now than before I had it. The cancer is all gone so I feel pretty good about that but they had to cut between my ribs to get enough room to do the operation. Since I'm right handed it agrivates an already very sore area. It hurts to wear a seat belt but I do anyway. That's another story....
 
I guess when you're cut in two with an axe it might hurt a bit later on, eh?

thanks for asking,