Pertronix Ignitor

[bpossel]

Hello All!

To continue with an earlier post regarding testing of the coil, I wanted to post another question to our group....

Keep the Pertronix Ignitor installed in my car, or go back to the original "factory" points?  I bought the car last summer, Pertronix was already installed, no documentation!  I have worked though all other areas, installing rebuilt injection pump, resetting all linkages to spec.  The car runs well in general, but I have a slight miss, sputter at idle.  Also have a slight miss at various different rpms.  I am like the rest of you...  seeking perfection is our cars!

I have attached a diagram that I made last night with how my Pertronix is installed.  Label on the Pertronix is: 09X-V4 CARB E.0 D-57 2.  There are a couple of the wires I can't trace all the way because they run into the "main factory" wiring, which I dont want to cut the outer insulation open.

I do have the aluminum distributor with part number 0 231 185 009 (JFU6).  Old Blue coil with 0.4 and 0.6 ohm ballast, as you can see in the diagram.  Also have the MB Transistorized Ign Module that sits under the battery...

So, should I keep the Pertronix and try and resolve, or go back to the original setup?

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions!
Bob



Download Attachment: mb ign.jpg
31.62 KB

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[bpossel]

Update...

I Spoke to Pertronix this morning.  Great support!!!  They are going to send me (free) the correct magnet for this distributor.  They think I have the wrong magnet.  Correct part number will be “1867”.  This should be stamped into the magnet.

Once I get this installed and tested, will update the site.
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[erickmarciano]

I think you need 12 volts at the red of the dist.you have to bypass the ballast resistor

1971 280sl
1962 VW
1954 Allstate vespa
1958 gs150 vespa
1962 gs160 vespa

[n/a]

Bob,

Did the new magnet solve the problem?  Did you get the Pertronix to work?  I am very interested because I am ready to make the jump. Are you using the 1863 or the 1864LA unit?

Thanks,
Louis 70 280SL

[bpossel]

Hi Louis,

The new magnet did make a change....  idle seems to be better, but now have a sputter at ~2500-3000 rpms.  Did not check timing after I installed the new magnet.  I will do this this weekend and get back to you.  Will also check the exact PN that is on the new magnet.
Bob

quote:Originally posted by ll2002

Bob,

Did the new magnet solve the problem?  Did you get the Pertronix to work?  I am very interested because I am ready to make the jump. Are you using the 1863 or the 1864LA unit?

Thanks,
Louis 70 280SL

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[mdsalemi]

There seems to be a variety of challenges with the Pertronix.  Magnets, pickups, etc.  Lots of support required.  Pete The Engineer; Bob Possel seem to be only two who have had issues with the Pertronix.

The Crane XR700 does not seem to have these issues.  John W. has put together a marvelous guide on the product for the 113.  Seems each Pertronix needs something a bit different.

Remind me of why one would choose the Pertronix over the Crane?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[A Dalton]

<<Remind me of why one would choose the Pertronix over the Crane?>>

Beats me....
The superior tech of optical switching over hall effect switching
is enough reason to do the Crane for me..

[hands_aus]

I installed a Pertronix unit in my 250sl and after adjusting the timing by 1-2 degrees and correcting the air/fuel mixture, the car goes great. I rarely if ever go above 66 mph (110KPH).

I now do not have any sputter at any speed. Initially I did but I found my air/fuel mixture was too lean.

After adjusting and eliminating the end play of the linkage rods I get 18mpg on a trip. When I bought the car nearly 3 years ago I was getting 9mpg on a trip.

There is no external module and I used my old existing coil and 0.9 ohm ballast resistor which is in-circuit all the time. This arrangement is correct for my car.

The Pertronix unit just replaced the points. I had to disconnect the condenser but no other modifications to the rest of the ignition system.
The bonus is that I won't have to replace points in the future. All I will have to remember to do is oil the felt pad in the distributor spindle.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[TR]

Mike, Dr. Benz -- I've been running the Crane Fireball XR700 for a number of years and it has done a great job.

Also, I'm running a blue coil.  Is that the optimal coil for the Crane XR700??  Any other thoughts/suggestions on getting the best overal combo for optimal firing?

Thanks.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL, 4-spd, signal-red w/lt. tan leather; restored/enhanced.

[TheEngineer]

My car came with the 009 aluminum body distributor. It may have been installed by a previous owner. But I couldn't get points for it and they wanted $35 for a condenser. I didn't get 30 degrees of advance out of it at 3000RPM when I set it at 4°ATC at idle with the vacuum connected, so I screwed around a bit. Filed the stops for the fly weights. Now I get 33°. Installed the Pertronix IgnitorII P/N 91867 works fine. Previously tried the P/N 1867. Worked fine up to 3000RPM. Missed over that. Talked to factory. Got magnet with white dot. still didn't work right. Returned unit and bought P/N 91867. Installed magnet ring with white dot. Idled rough and quit sometimes. Observed no spark at idle using strobe. Installed magnet ring which came with P/N 91867: Runs fine. Why do I screw around instead of catching me a squirrel and run it in a cage?

[n/a]

I am leaning toward Pertronix because I think it is easier to install. I am no engineer and I want something that I can handle. I heard that the Crane could be quite a challenge.  Someone please let me know if I am wrong.

[jeffc280sl]

I have the Crane system.  The most difficult part of the install is mechanical mounting of the optical trigger under the distributor cap.  The design is for a universal application so I had to grind down some pieces to make sure the fit did not interfere with the advance/retard plate movement. The trigger and slotted disk need to be installed at the same time which is a bit of a challenge. Because of space limitations you can't install the trigger after the plate is pushed down on the distributor shaft.  Likewise you can't install the plate after the one piece trigger because the trigger needs to see through the slot with one section above the disk and one below. Once done it seems pretty simple though.  To properly allign the trigger I recommend that you remove the distributor and do the alignment on a bench.  They have a built in LED on their ignition box so you can see when the trigger fires.  This way you can get it perfect.  I mounted the box in the same location as the Mercedes Ignition Module, under the battery.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[n/a]

Bob,

How is your Pertronix performing? Are you using the 1863 or the 1864LA?

Louis

[bpossel]

Hi Louis,

With the new magnet that Pertronix sent me (I believe 1867?, need to still verify this), and a slight timing adjustment, the car runs great!  I am very pleased!
I know I owe you this part number, and will check tonight!
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[bpossel]

Louis,

Checked the Pertronix magnet.  Part number stamped on the magnet is 18673.  Also has the "white dot".

Good Luck!
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[n/a]

Bob,

Thank you. I am going to give it a try. Did you buy the ignitor model 1863 or model 1864LA?

Louis

[bpossel]

Hi Louis,

The Pertronix came with my car when I purchased it.  Unfortunately, no documentation...  The only info that I have on it is in my original post, top of this thread.
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[joelj]

Hi,
I bought the 1864LA for my 1969 280Sl and it works grreat. I also bought the coil from pertronix.

Good luck,

Joelj

[bpossel]

Long Post!

I wanted to revive an old post regarding my Pertronix setup.  I am very pleased with how my car is now performing with this setup and wanted to share my history.

When I bought my car, it had the Pertronix installed, along with the original MB Ignition system still hooked in.

I am now running the Pertronix with a Bosch Blue Coil with NO ballast resistors.  Have run this setup now for approx 1000 miles and my plugs have a nice brown/gray color and I seem to have little to no "spitting" out of the tail pipes anymore.  Car is running great at all speeds!

See history below:

I did the following test, per the Pertronix website:

To determine if your systems coil is compatible with the Pertronix Ignitor, some measurements should be taken prior to installation of the Ignitor. Caution… While performing this test, never leave the ignition switch on for more than 30 seconds at a time.

1. Set your voltmeter to a 15 or 20-volt scale. Attach an 18 or 20 AWG jumper wire from the negative coil terminal to an engine ground. Attach positive (red) lead of your voltmeter to the positive side of the coil, and the negative (black) lead to an engine ground. Turn the ignition switch to the run position. Now read the voltage at the positive coil terminal. Turn the ignition switch off. If the voltage measured is approximately 12 volts, no resistance wire is present. A typical resistance wire will provide 9 - 6 volts.

2.  The next step is to determine the resistance in the primary ignition. Label the wires attached to the coil terminals and note their appropriate location. Make sure that the ignition switch is off and disconnect all wires from the coil. Adjust your meter to the lowest ? ohm scale. If you are using an analog style meter make sure to zero the needle. Measure from the negative terminal to the positive terminal. Write your measurement down.

Now the maximum system amperage can be determined, divide your voltage measurement by your coil resistance measurement. This will give you the system current or amperage.
Four cylinder engines should not exceed 4 amps. Six and eight cylinder engines should not exceed 8.5 amps. If the total amperage in your system is higher than the amount recommended for your application, you should install a ballast resistor.

1. Example Voltage 12
2. Resistance 1.5
3. Total Amperage 8 (12 / 1.5)
NOTE: Total amperage 8 (this number must not exceed 8.5 !)

My reading was initially as follows (with MB Electronic Ignition):
1.  Voltage 3.48
2. Resistance 0.8
3. Total Amperage 4.35 (3.48/0.

I then removed the MB electronic ignition and the 0.4 ohm ballast.  Installed the 0.6 ballast in it’s place

The reading was then:
1. Voltage 4.80
2. Resistance 0.8
3. Total Amperage 6.0 (4.80/0.

On March 25, 2006, I removed my Bosch ignition coil (silver in color with a red label) and replaced it with a new Bosch “Blue” coil, pn 0-221-119-027-740 (thanks Dennis!).  I also removed the 0.6 ohm ballast.  So in summary, am using blue coil and no ballast resistors at all.

My reading is now:
1. Voltage 11.92
2. Resistance 3.3
3. Total Amperage 3.61 (11.92/3.3)

Also note: I am using Bosch Spark Plugs W7DC (default gap out of the box = .032).  I Increased the gap by +.006, as per Pertronix suggestion.





bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320

[JimVillers]

I'll just share my experience with Crane and Pertronix ignitions.  I began with the Crane unit on both my 190SL and my 230SL in the late nineties.  The pickups weredifficult to install inside the distributors and it was dificult to align the pickup so that the spark would go to the the correct plug wire during the entire advance curve of the distributor.  The units lasted about four years in each car, the 230SL unit failed in 2003 and the 190SL unit failed in 2004 and I just swapped points into the distributor to get home.  Last year, I bought a Pentronix unit for my 230SL (I can't recall the number) and it installed in minutes without even needing to adjust the timing.  It has worked flawlessly since then.  Last month, I found the Pentronix part number for my 190SL (designed for the Porsche 912 67-69) and it also installed in minutes.

I have heard of that an optical sensor is superior to the magnetic sensor;  that might be theoretically correct but in the hot, dirty automotive environment it may not have the robustness of the magnetic technology.  


Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor

[bjudd]

I just installed the Pertronix & am very happy with the performance.  I want to reinforce the need to grind the corner of part of the bracket (which is in the instructions).  Though the collar looks like it is down far enough without this simple modification... it isn't.  Secondly, we had to advance the distributor considerably relative to the specs.  It would go through the rpms with no misfire without a load, but when driving a huge miss would appear around 3000 rpm.  To rectify, we drove, stopped and rotated the distributor a little bit (numerous times) till the miss disappeared.   This, combined with finally buying a new fuel pump and the car is finally running the way I hoped it could.  

[Benz Dr.]

The bigest problem I see with Crane units is mounting of the optical trigger. It's almost impossible to get it just right so that it will work as designed. That's why I call it a wonky system. They could of come up with a better way to do it you would think.

If you can get it set up right it seems to work OK but I've seen a few with broken springs that hold the slotted disc to the distrbutor shaft. Other times I've seen places where things started to rub. I can't say if any of these things led to some of the problems or failures that have been reported here.

I suppose in the big picture as long as you have a spark it really doesn't matter how it's made. Distributor fuction must be optimal before it will work right so any electronic unit won't help cure those problems.
In the case of conversions you really need to look at 3 basic things:
1) fly weight advance and springs
2) vacuum advance/retard parts for proper movement or excessive play on the point plate
3) end play of the distributor shaft. Excessive up and down movement will make aligning the slotted disc very hard to do and it will likely rub top or bottom when you don't want it to.

[bpossel]

Hi Brian,

Glad that you got it working!  Just to update my old post...
Last year I installed the Pertronix Ignitor II along with their Pertronix 45k volt coil and wires.  I removed all of the original mb electronic ign stuff and put it away for the next owner.  So my install is very simple.  Red wire of Pertronix to "+" on the coil and black wire to "-" on the coil.  No other wires, no ballasts, etc...
Bob  

quote:Originally posted by bjudd

I just installed the Pertronix & am very happy with the performance.  I want to reinforce the need to grind the corner of part of the bracket (which is in the instructions).  Though the collar looks like it is down far enough without this simple modification... it isn't.  Secondly, we had to advance the distributor considerably relative to the specs.  It would go through the rpms with no misfire without a load, but when driving a huge miss would appear around 3000 rpm.  To rectify, we drove, stopped and rotated the distributor a little bit (numerous times) till the miss disappeared.   This, combined with finally buying a new fuel pump and the car is finally running the way I hoped it could.  

[al_lieffring]

I remember back in the 70's there was a kit available from the MB parts network that was an optical trigger for the M 130, M110 and M116 distributors with the TSZ ignition system.
The kits had a Mercedes part number but was made by TRW in the USA. The kit replaced the points but still used the TSZ transistor box and coil so the timing advance relays would still operate.

This kit disapeared from the special versions parts listings by the 80's and when the optical sensor quit working the cars had to be converted back to points.

Has anyone with a TSZ transistor ignition tried to use the Pertronics trigger to operate the factory TSZ ignition system?

The biggest problem with the TSZ system was that there was such a small current across the points that the contacts would get dirt on them and not make contact. To help keep the points clean It was common for the condensor wire to have been cut, in the TSZ system it was only there for radio supression. Also the Bosch points kits came with a plastic cover that snapped over the contacts.
the amount of grease used on the points was critical, too much and the grease would get on the contacts, not enough, the fibre block would wear down and change the dwell setting.
When these TSZ cars wouldn't start, the first thing to check was to clean the point contacts using a dollar bill, using a point file only made things worse.

Al