Author Topic: 250 SL 3.0  (Read 34298 times)

redpagoda

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250 SL 3.0
« on: January 01, 2009, 09:17:35 »
Given the 256 Kb upload limit and unsure how else to share my photos I have put them on Flickr for those interested.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/slpagoda/sets/72157611936779359/show/

The one photo uploaded is my first red 280 SL and my brothers restored 230 SL Great Ocean Rd Victoria

As a keen enthusiast of the Pagoda I have admired the camaraderie that my fellow enthusiasts have shared through the Pagoda SL group. Cautiously I share some of my experiences with fellow enthusiasts, given on some occasions the frowned upon views held by some with regard change from the factory specification

This is my third “Pagoda” My first car was a 1968 280SL Auto, followed by a 69 280 SL manual 4speed, and this I plan on being my last Pagoda a 250SL Auto - special.

There is always much argument as to which is more collectible, which has better handling or faster acceleration with the list of comparisons going on endlessly. I for one find some small variances in the different incarnations, however not significant to push me in one direction or another. Perhaps of all the differences I do like the thought of the 250 & 280  having rear disc brakes. However prefer most of the details associated with the 230’s, primarily the bright work.

Some time back Jeremy Clarkson “Top Gear” reviewed the W113 in series 3 episode 8 http://www.topgear.com/uk/tv-show/series-3/episode-8  with some fair comments; . In short he complained that the performance was lacking and all the engine did when you put your foot down was make more noise with little extra go. I had on several occasions taken my SL’s up to the 160Km  before fear of a police person and their revenue gun brought me back to the speed limit. However I have always felt that the rattle from the mechanical injection and the general engine noise detracted from long distance cruising. To dull the drone of the air passing above the softop and the engine noise I often had the stereo up so much that a conversation required a seesawing of the volume control.
 
For a long time I have been a traditionalist; leave it as it came from the factory, other than perhaps installing a contemporary sound system. I dislike cutting holes or drastically changing the appearance of the car. However I have broken my own rules on this project and have yet to decide whether it was the right or wrong thing to do.

Before I get to the changes perhaps an insight as to why?. I recall the first Pagoda we bought. My brother and I live in Melbourne and he had eyed a 230SL from a deceased estate in Adelaide, approximately 900Km’s west of Melbourne. We made the initial call, The son in law was selling the old boy’s pride and joy. It was Thursday evening and we set off at the foolish time of 4pm, arriving in Adelaide after a refuel and a quick bite around 1am, only to discover that most of the local motels are all locked up at around 11pm. An hour later we found Norman at what looked like the Bates motel and crawled into bed.

The following day after a hearty breakfast along the shores of Glenelg we set off to find the old boy’s pride and joy. Well the son in law had applied a little poetic license in the description. The paint was all faded the interior was well past its prime and overall the car looked tired, although the engine and drive train all performed admirably. The problem was that we had been looking for a while and the drive over had put us in frame of mind where we were a little too keen.


So after a period of initial negotiating we said that we were off to Lunch and that we would consider our offer. I think we were $3000 apart. Its Friday Afternoon and in those days the banks closed at 3.30pm. So back we went explained how much the restoration was going to cost and finally agreed to split the difference. Now we had to madly dash off to the bank to with draw the good part of $30,000 ( for my American cousins, cars here are expensive) in cash, rush back and check the transfer papers were in order, there was still enough registration on the South Australian Plates, call Insurance companies and obtain a cover note. All done. Now how do we get it back to Melbourne, we had no idea where the local transport depot’s were or who actually transported cars, and the few places we called the secretary in her Friday afternoon enthusiasm said” ees gone for the day darl, you can catch im on Mundee”

Great here we are late afternoon on a Friday with a car. Not much left to do other than down to the local servo, check the fluid levels, tyre pressure, yeah the spare, its got a jack and hit the road.

As the clock nudged 2.30am Saturday morning I could see the lights of the Westgate bridge in the distance. We had made it!  What surprised me was that we made it home without a single hiccup. The lights all worked, It ran like a treat, no overheating, no burning of oil, no mysterious clatters or grinding. From that day on I have always respected the marquee.

So now back to my project. In all the time that my brother and I have owned pagoda’s we have been keen to glean as much knowledge as possible, we were both Members of the local MB car club and SL register, having countless discussions about the SL’s in question. Albeit I loved my car I always found that after a long drive, I felt a little tired. Being aware of this I tried to deduce why. When I drive my every day VW Passat, I can get in and hop out a 1200km’s later feeling not too different to the beginning of my journey. What was the major difference? Noise, vibration and the seats

With my other SL’s I noted that the rev counter often ran around 3300 rpm at about 100km/h ( 60mph ) It always felt as though the engine wished to give more however the gearing said this is it. Where as with the late 80’s 300E the whole thing was quieter and managed the same speed at several hundred rpm less. A few years earlier I remember reading an article in Thoroughbred and Classic car April 1996 where a Mercedes 450V8 was shoe horned into a 113. However the battery had to be placed in the boot, there were modifications to the transmission tunnel and a quite a number of small details that needed to be attended to. Then I read about Mechatronics and how they could transform your old Pagoda with the runnings of a current MB, however from the photos that I saw the auto selector was no longer original and a number of other minor cosmetic changes had taken place. Furthermore it was not practical to send a car from Australia to Germany.  Thus I decided upon the drive train from a 1989 300E SOHC ( the twin cams tend to have head gasket issues) I elected to purchase a whole car and take parts that I needed rather than just buy the drive train, It proved a wise decision with wiring harness engine management system all being needed. The primary choice of this model is that the engine management system is not integrated into the cars other functions and therefore easier to integrate into the Pagoda

My goal was to improve the experience with as little external visual change as possible. However I do concede that I have made the following changes

Drive train/ Engine bay
   300E SOHC 3 litre with mated 4speed transmission
   Vitreous coated the exhaust manifold in and out for improved gas flow and better heat dispersion
   The front half of the exhaust to the cat is from the 300E the rear is from the SL
   Installed the E class radiator with ac condenser

   E class fuel pump
   Replaced sprung bonnet stay with a gas strut
   Altered the accelerator pedal for a hung style as opposed to the original floor mounted
   Installed rubber door grommets for additional door wiring

   Done away with the original seats in favour of C class seats. Adding the E class arm rest 
   About 50 kilograms ( 80lbs) of Acoustic matting bonded to the floor pan with a special bitumen sandwiched foam beneath the carpets.
     
(Perhaps a little over the top, you could now interrogate a Guantanamo inmate in the car in the heart of New York and no one would hear a thing)

   Engineered retractable seatbelts into the cavity behind the door pillar,
   Installed remote central locking that is hooked up to an alarm immobilizer, Saves fiddling with the keys
   Increased the height of the rear parcel area to hold a concealed 12” sub woofer
   Installed acoustic mating all the way up the fire wall, wheel arches, floor pan, door skins, to cut noise and vibration
   Installed a new evaporator beneath the glove box, then retro fit an original Mark IV under dash ducting system. Not as nice as the American Frijking but little other choice for RHD
   Courtesy lighting in the foot well with safety lights in the doors
   Upgraded the headlight globes to H4 halogen and the brake lights to LED globes

Original tyres were a 185/75 R14. My preference is 205/65 R14 however due to the limited sizes in white walls have gone with 205/70 R14 . This is close to the original height whilst also applying more rubber to the road. Under heavy braking the nose dive results in the rear lifting and sprung axle altering the camber of tyre and road surface, hopefully wider tyres and a lighter front end will provide for more surface adhesion

For those wondering about the color well it’s a black with red pearl through it. For 80 percent of the time it looks black other than in bright sunshine or under halogen lighting. Im calling it “Molten Onyx” its very subtle definitely not “bling bling”

The interior is a combination of Leather and vinyl. I elected to do the door trims in vinyl for ease of cleaning based on the light color. The leather is an Austrian aeronautical grade with fire retardant and UV stabilizers called Snowcorn. A light creamy beige. As a keen beach goer I decided to go with a later model carpet as my experience with the loop carpet is that sand always remained at the base of the loop. The new carpet is foam backed so I’m hoping that sand will not penetrate below

Hopefully this presents as a smart clean looking drivers car. It is not likely to do well in a concours due to its lack of originality. However I have kept all the main parts removed, seats, drive train etc and as no surgery was done to the car, so technically the process could be reversed

This project is definitely not for the faint hearted and there were times that I wondered whether I had pushed things a little too much. Albeit I had allowed a generous restoration budget inclusive of the acquisition of the 300E, the overall project exceeded my budget. However it was my objective in not compromising in reaching my end goal. A classic with contemporary performance.

Other considerations which I may implement
Progressive or coil over springs, (Im not fond of the nose dive)
KMH odometer if I can find one
New Fuel cap
Additional wing mirror
A new chip for the engine management for increased horsepower

Add cruise control if I can work it into the interior

Peter van Es

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2009, 09:40:02 »
Wow! So, how does it drive?
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

DavidBrough

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2009, 10:35:54 »
What a fantastic job, I’m quite envious. Personally I’m all for upgrades and modifications that retain the basic look and style of the original whilst improving performance and drivability and you seem to have hit on a good balance. I would be really interested to learn more about the engine and gearbox swap in terms of what was involved in fabricating the fit and how much of the work was down to your own skills. I would love to do something like that but am not sure I have the necessary skills. I would also like to learn more about you’re A/C ducting as your installation looks great. What is a Mk IV ducting system and where did you get it. I have an underdash unit that won’t win any beauty contests and would happily change it for a separate evaporator and ducting system. As you say, there aren’t many options for RHD cars.


Jonny B

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2009, 15:17:30 »
Very impressive indeed! I too will ask the question about how does it drive? How long did the project take?
Jonny B
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redpagoda

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2009, 19:44:17 »
I have only had the car on the road a short time, The engine and transmission are great easy electronic ignition starting, no clunky down shifts by the gear box, smooth power curve. The only change still required is a donor diff. Looking to use a W108 3.5V8 which i think was 3.27. I still get to enjoy the raspy exhaust note on acceleration and burble on over run. I anticipate tweaking things a little over the coming months

Bearing in mind that the radiator needed to be lowered so as not to catch on the hood ( You could use the original radiator in cooler climates) The only other engineering change was the engine mounts. With few mechanical resources I used my Mercedes specialist to do the installation.

The underdash ducting unit was once a common addition in early 70's cars that had aftermarket AC installed. I located mine when scouring a wreckers. Given the flat base of our dash a duct of less than 90cm long is ideal. Finding one can be difficult.

Regards Robert

dtuttle123

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2009, 00:00:00 »
Robert -

I'm a 'traditional and classic' guy, but WOW!  I appreciate the amount of work and engineering that must have gone into this project!  Good show!

upside2k

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 00:45:45 »
I just happen to have been sorting out this type of conversion, in my mind, for my wife's car(230SL), so I am so happy to read about your exploits!

Many members see this as heresy. I once gave consideration to changing over to electronic injection and it wasn't well received by some.

A couple  of questions, if you don't mind:

From what you have said, I assume you used the 300E transmission. Did you have to fabricate the front motor mounts, or did you modify one from another car? How about the transmission mount and linkage? When you say you had to lower the radiator, was it for a radiator out of the 300E? Did you have to modify the propeller shaft?

Thanks for any help.

John



redpagoda

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2009, 02:34:26 »
Hi John

Yes the engine mounts needed to be modified, I will try and take some photos and post them over the weekend. I dont believe that the transmission mounts required altering, however as the selector is reverse to that of the 300E the mechanic chose to use a cable ( think from a BMW) in lieu of the 300E linkage. The prop shaft did require some shortening.

The radiator is from the 300E, it was not necessary to use it, however as I am running A/C and the temperatures here in Summer can be quite hot I thought it best to match engine with the right cooling system. Last Saturday the temperature here reached 46.9 Celsius and we have lots of bush fires and losses to contend with. One fire came within a 1km of my home, such the late reply.

Regards Robert

upside2k

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2009, 22:17:12 »
Thanks for the reply. I'd love to see the motor mounts, if you get a chance to post them.

I should have looked at your photos before posting my questions; they are quite informative. Looks like what I have in mind. Nice Job!!

redpagoda

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2009, 22:07:47 »
Hi John

The photo of the engine mount does not show much, however hope it helps

waqas

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2009, 18:02:01 »
Hello redpagoda,

Did you modify the front subframe at all?  From the picture of the engine mount, it looks like you simply raised the standard 230/250 mount with a ~10mm plate of some sort. Is this correct?

Also, is the engine mount heat shield standard or custom?  I've seen a similar looking shield in 250se mounts on the exhaust (right) side.
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

dixy2k

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2009, 22:07:41 »
Is there a weight difference between the original engine and the new one?

If the newer one is lighter there will be a change in the dynamic response. Just curious how it feels.

redpagoda

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2009, 02:03:55 »
As the mounting point is further back than original, the plate was added to the subframe for reinforcing.  The current engine is slightly lighter than the original and I am using an aluminium radiator over the original brass unit. However with the addition of ac compressor, condenser and windscreen washer bottle in the place of the old air cleaner I don’t think that there has been any noticeable change to the steering dynamics.
Regards Robert

canuckada

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2009, 23:07:59 »
Redpagoda,

A question if I may. I don't mean to sound smarmy when I ask this question, because I think your conversion is very clever and very appealing. My ponderance has to do with the effort required for the performance improvement. When I looked up the HP and torque of the original SL 250, Wiki indicated that the 250 had 148 hp and 159 lb ft of torque. The M103 apparently produces 177hp with 188 lb ft of torque. Though you indicated that it revs a bit lower at speed, is there a significant enough improvement in power to warrant such a change. Again, I don't mean to be rude when I ask the question, but rather if you were to do it all over again, would you use the same engine as the M103 or another one? Thank you in advance for your input. Cheers!

rwmastel

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 16:36:55 »

Under heavy braking the nose dive results in the rear lifting and sprung axle altering the camber of tyre and road surface, hopefully wider tyres and a lighter front end will provide for more surface adhesion

Other considerations which I may implement
Progressive or coil over springs, (Im not fond of the nose dive)

There are a lot of old threads in the forums dealing with suspension modifications.  Lots of discussions on springs, shock absorbers, sway bar bushings, etc...  I bet those modifications will make you very happy.
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
2017 C43 AMG
2006 Wrangler Rubicon
1966 230SL auto "Italian"

redpagoda

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 09:47:33 »
Hi Canuckada

My motivation was to provide a quieter smoother driving experience. My mechanical advisors felt that the 24v twin cam tend to have head gasket issues and later model engines have computer systems that require more electronic integration. Thus the choice of engine. It is noticeably quieter, easier starting and smooth by comparison to the original motor. Also here in Victoria with a less than 20% power increase the motoring authority does not require onerous braking compliance testing.

If I could find a means of using a later engine with more horsepower that provided no major surgery I would be happy to give it a go. Am I happy with the result. Yes. Would I do it again Yes

Regards Redpagoda

cth350

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 03:01:11 »
cool job. I've got a 230SL with a bad motor and have considered various motor swaps for it as I don't feel like taking the time to rebuild the engine given the spares I have.   

- Where are the engine electricals hiding?
- Any driveshaft mods?
- Any modifications required to fit that radiator?

Lastly, pictures of your shifter setup would be of help.

Thx! -CTH

redpagoda

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2009, 20:28:10 »
Hi CTH

In answer to your questions.
Given the short harness on the engine management unit the choices were behind the glove box ( fouls with wipers) so in the end it has been located passenger kick panel above where a speaker is located.
The shifter is the original ( I am in Borneo Malaysia, not back in Melbourne for quite a while to take & post pics) A different linkage was used to maintain the same operational order as the original
The tail shaft was shortened slightly.
There were a couple of brackets created for assisting in supporting the radiator. Additional brackets were created for the AC condenser and thermal fan

Cheers Robert

sjiatrou

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 02:10:47 »
Shifting to the interior: can you give me some information on the seats and how much modification was done to the seat wells and the seats themselves to get them to fit.  Gorgeous interior!

redpagoda

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2009, 01:15:04 »
Hi Steve

The seats are first gen C class ( 94-99) I had to lose the height adjustment as it built the rear up too much and would have had my head too high. I wanted eye level at 65-70% of screen height. I have used the original rails and attached them to the seats. Of all the Pagodas Ive had I find the seats to springy which had me griping the steering wheel to tight when driving hard through corners, as I was using the wheel as a support. The current seats are firm and I dont have any lower back aches after a long drive. I retrimmed the seats in the same style as the originals, inserting the vents and decided to retain the pockets for maps etc. I chose to also use the seat belt stork with the seat so decided to reinforce the seat anchor points with plates and larger threads in the rear. A little bit of messing around but if you stay with the original seat belt points not so much work. Cheers Robert

sjiatrou

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2009, 15:30:20 »
Thanks Robert. Great information.

aboushadi

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2012, 11:04:16 »
Redpagoda

i'm dying to see pictures, as i'm thinking of doing the same conversion. but the link wouldn't open?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/slpagoda/sets/72157611936779359/show/


Cees Klumper

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2012, 20:47:41 »
This might be because the posts are a few years old.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

redpagoda

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2012, 19:54:19 »

aboushadi

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Re: 250 SL 3.0
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2012, 06:47:48 »
I'm from Egypt, where we only have 8 pagoda's in the whole country. i was lucky to find one for sale and i bought it, but this is the engine i have in it. the previous owner changed the engine and put this 250 twin zenith carbs in. the carbs are to high to cover with an air intake, so i'm trying to get something custom built. but i'm seriously thinking of putting in a m 103 or m 104, hows the hood clearance for the m 103 air filter?