Taking stock of the Pagoda SL Group

[Peter van Es]

Now that we've completed our first full month of operation with the new website I'd like to take this opportunity to share some interesting behind the scenes details with you.

Please look at the attached ZIP file which contains a PDF file which gives statistics on the use of our website.

We had 6946 unique visitors this month, who visited the site 18000 times. On average a visitor views 16 pages per visit. Note that based on these statistics, about half our visitors are unknown guests (i.e. people without a membership or registration on the site). These are actually pretty good numbers, and I'm sure that banner advertisers who sell goods and services of interest to our membership would be keen to advertise on our site... but we are not going to introduce that!

The US is by far the largest location of our visitors, the figures from the Netherlands are inflated because I spend a reasonable amount of time on the site. UK, Canada and Australia are also well represented. Notable is the lack of German visitors, interesting is that we have quite a following from people in China, Poland and so on.

My IP address 80.101.216.79 is a high volume user -- especially in bandwidth -- because I make a copy of all of the database every night.

You can see that Yahoo! and Google spend a fair bit of time retrieving and indexing our site.

87% of our users use Windows, 10% a Macintosh (which is probably a little inflated since I use a Mac and am a frequent visitor).

About 92,5% of visits come to us directly (i.e. from a Bookmark) and of the remainder more than half finds us via Google. Notable is that there are very few sites that link to us...

If you'd like to help us be even more successful, try and get other sites to take a link to us at http://www.sl113.org/, as Pagoda SL Group... that is probably the only way we can get more traffic and end up higher in the search rankings.

We still have a fairly high number of 404 errors, which are caused by many search engines still having links to old forum and website URL's. For Yahoo! and Google I have created sitemaps which lead to them cleaning up their indexes soon, deleting old references so I expect that number of errors to go down over the next few months.

Then onto our own heartbeat:

• We have around 2.17 new members register each day (67 in November, 46 in December)
• About 30 new posts are made each day
• During the transfer to the new site in November I cleaned out the old member details, and we currently have 1313 members
• Today, 249 of these are Full Members
• The new automated payment interface means that people are quicker to both renew and join... about 40 people did so in November and December, 20 of whom were NEW members. It is a far easier process now, as the full membership is activated immediately.
  

I conclude that we are alive and well as a community, but that we should do our best to spread the word of our existence on the Internet.

I do hope that in 2009 we will have a number of events where we can meet fellow members in person!

Peter

[zoegrlh]

Peter,
Job well done, as we all know.
Bob

[gwuisman]

Well done Peter and a happy new year!

Gerard Wuisman.

[Raymond]

Hats off to you, Peter.  How many of us would have been lost without the help of the members on this site.  Your work facilitating our hobby is well appreciated.  I have tried all the BMW (my other cars) and VW sites I can find, and not one holds a candle to this.  Thanks for the update and thanks for keeping the site so clean from clutter.

[Dash808]

I confess, I am one of the 92.5%

Great job on a great site, Peter.  A huge asset for all!

[pauldridge]

Kudus for a wonderful site.  I'm an active member of the MGA, Jaguar, Corvette, BMW (e9 3.0CS), and Supra/Lexus forums.  I can tell you that not one of the sites holds a candle to this one in terms of organization, content, technical info, and purposeful contributors (not too much "white noise" in the form of useless posts).

I'm grateful for your work in guiding this group to excellence!
Phil from Texas

[Eryck]

Interesting stats indeed.  I've never seen such stats regarding internet traffic before actually...

Also interesting that the site is getting a lot of visits from China.  I travel there for business at least 2-3 times a month and have never seen a classic car there.  Would imagine import restrictions would be quite tough as well.  Also interesting because there is no registered member from China at all!

Perhaps the reason for little participation from Germany is because they have there own very active site in German??

Thanks for the excellent site, Peter.

[Eryck]

By the way, Peter, that membership renewal function on the website is the best idea.  I just tried it out and it's great.  Things like wire transfers, bank cheques etc are the main reason why I am always late for all kinds of overseas payments.  Salute to that one.

[Peter van Es]

Also interesting that the site is getting a lot of visits from China.  I travel there for business at least 2-3 times a month and have never seen a classic car there.  Would imagine import restrictions would be quite tough as well.  Also interesting because there is no registered member from China at all!

Perhaps the reason for little participation from Germany is because they have there own very active site in German??

China references in the statistics include Hong Kong... so your clicks count too, Eryck! However, I think with so many people in China some are bound to get to our site once in a while.

And yes, the lack of german traffic is caused by http://www.pagodentreff.de/, which serves the German speaking contingent very well. I would have hoped though that Dominik (of Pagodentreff) would have pointed his membership to our Technical Manual a bit more, and perhaps it might be possible to translate, with his approval, and convert some of their excellent articles to put them in our Technical Manual.

And thanks for the compliments on the payment side... I thought the improved membership functions and immediate activation would pay off, and they do!

Peter

[Amanda]

Kudos and many thanks for all your efforts.  Not sure how much traffic it will direct, but I posted a link on my Facebook page.  My two cents on the high traffic from China - unclear why, but that seems to be a universal stat.  I get quite a few hits from China on my own little blog, which is about renovating a 1900s foursquare, something I wouldn't think you find any of in China, but what do I know. 

[Eryck]

Well, with over one billion people and over two or three hundred million internet users in China, chances are good I suppose. 

[k]

May I suggest that the group sets up a dedicated Youtube, Flikkr, site with all videos, pics, gallery of members cars, events, DIY, rally, etc. with an embded web link image at bottom.  Not sure if Facbook, Myspace or Twitter could be set up in same manner.

Ultimately, banner ads from the 1/2 dozen US or EU restoration specific shops for the SL (Sports Leicht, Hatch, SLTech, ARI,  Scott, Paull Russel)  might be a good idea.

Many other niche enthusiast sites have a small number of Sponsor advertisers, and pumping-up or dumping-on their reputations is discouraged.

Works well, and brings in traffic & $, with little censorship or issues.

As an aside Mercedes does not register high on rankings of automotive fora (#60) in general; this might be due to age deomgraphics (50s) or lack of entry-sport/tuner or halo/supercar model.  Hopefully the sub-SL concept will have a rally/club racer option like Mini Works.

Most of the Top 10 sites are tuner related (Asian) or modern (VwVortex, Corvette Forum, etc).

BMW has done a very good job (BimmerForum, Bimmerfest, 3 series/M3) and their fora are prominent in Top 20.

Ranking

http://www.big-boards.com/kw/cars/

[JamesL]

odd you should say that, k

The DDK forum has banner ads and quite active participation from restorers and the like. That's their choice but it is a different approach but I was a little surprised that we don't have a similar situation with pros (I know we have a few) actively participating.

http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/index.php

[Peter van Es]

We do encourage... and hope that professionals do share their knowledge on the forums. We have set aside a commercial board on the forum for them to advertise in. Dan Caron and Joe Alexander are currently the only ones that can make use of this commercial forum, but it does not see a lot of use. Commercial messages in all other forums are frowned upon and sometimes challenged and removed behind the scenes.

The Board decided not to have banner ads a long time ago. Hence there is no advertising visible anywhere on this website. That decision could obviously be changed but would require a board decision. I suggest that if you feel strongly that we would need to offer banner advertising in order to attract more professional involvement then you start lobbying with the Board.

Finally, on those rankings... I don't particularly attach much value to them. First of all, most of those message boards are for much more common cars than ours, or for an entire marque, thereby attracting more people in general.

As frequently commented, we have a level of sharing, technical knowledge and community on this board that is unequalled in most other boards. That, coupled with the 67000 messages we have, is actually indicative of a very lively community, especially given the number of members we have (1300). Do that ratio calculation (messages/members) for any of the other boards in that ranking table and you'll see what I mean!

Peter

[Garry]

I think Banner Ads would destroy the unique non commercial feel and nature of this group who share their knowledge without the thought of commercial gain from what ever background they come from.  There are lots of other Benz sites that do have banners that are not a patch on our Pagoda SL Group. We have a forum for commercial advertising and anyone who regularly reads the forums knows who the commercial members are that they can go to and use and trust.

If on the other hand we need to sell our souls to remain viable then that may be another proposition but I don't think that has been suggested at this point. Maybe if that was the situation then we would need to have a push for more Full Members (maybe by tightening up the level of access to the users of this unique group who are not willing to pay for Full Membership).

Garry

[waqas]

Thanks to all involved, _especially_ Peter's great effort in transferring the data from the old forum to the new software.

However...

This is certainly a great WEBsite and a great WEBforum with a very avid membership community from all over the world, that contribute over the WEB to make this a great source of information.

But I'd like to see more of the CLUB side of things: regional MEETings, perhaps in partnership with the local MBCA groups (or not), more SOCIAL events where people can share ideas and forge friendships. I'd like to see a percentage of dues spent toward funding more local events.

We currently have only one official event: Blacklick, hosted by Joe and Mary Alexander. This happens every other year. How about expanding the program to host more social events?  If we want more folks to become full-members, how about a full-member ONLY event on one of those evenings?

Regarding dues, what is our primary expenditure? Keeping up the website (webspace, software maintenance, licenses, etc) and publishing Pagoda World and the newsletter. Personally, I think the newsletter is superfluous, and all those articles would make better copy in the PW magazine, in addition to possibly helping with improving PW frequency. I really think we should allocate some of our membership dues toward more events, or improving the CLUB side of our existing events, or something like that.

[didn't someone else raise some of these points a while back?? I can't find that post anywhere...]

Anyhow, I'm really excited about what we've achieved with our web-forum and the progress on the technical manual. Now, I'd really like us to start developing the club side of things.

What say you?

[JamesL]

with you entirely

The international nature of the group - and it's www based origins - means we are pretty widely dispersed mob. We are also not the "youngest" crowd so we are car rich but often time poor (with many other demands on our time)

But yes, it's down to us to make that happen and try to participate in those events that are organised. We all appreciate the "bigger" events and the scale and benefits they create but frankly getting out for a drive and a (pub) lunch should be supported

I'm in!

[dhunter]

I've only recently been spending some time on the site as I have just acquired the car.
I find it very informative so far and think it wiill prove to be a great resource once I get going in the spring and beyond.

[jameshoward]

So, James,

Which pub, and when?

James

PS - Father Christmas bought me a classic driving routes map of the Cotswolds, so we're not completely without a plan!

[JamesL]

Cotswolds is miles away. I can't make that, it's too far and will take too much time

 

[DavidBrough]

Now I quite like the Costwolds, much better than Bradford. Not that I've anything against Bradford of course it's just not as nice as the Cotswolds.

[k]

Finally, on those rankings... I don't particularly attach much value to them. First of all, most of those message boards are for much more common cars than ours, or for an entire marque, thereby attracting more people in general.

Peter

The rankings of VwVortex, Corvette Forum and even Bimmerforum are indisputabale; they appear in the Top 10 of vitually every car internet list. Their Alexa rankings cannot be manipultated, and registered member totals speak for themselves.

Re: Banner ads.  Fair enough...

How about a Youtube site?

There are llike 25 SL Videos on Youtube and except 2-3 most are rubbish (some guy driving with camera on dash).  Seems like folks here could just walk around their cars with a cam or discuss a DIY project, (even still shots in a powepoint) or record a tech session or local car show.

That will drive traffic for free....though comments can be frank.

[Peter van Es]

The rankings of VwVortex, Corvette Forum and even Bimmerforum are indisputabale; they appear in the Top 10 of vitually every car internet list. Their Alexa rankings cannot be manipultated, and registered member totals speak for themselves.

I'm actually occasionally on the VwVortex forum... but it clearly appeals to a much wider audience than our Pagoda SL forum. There were 48912 Pagoda's built, over 40 years ago. We have 1300 members and 50 posts per member. I really do not see any justification for comparing our group to the VwVortex forum. We will NEVER get 500 thousand members. It just is not possible. Additionally, we are a very different group. We organise live events. I'm sure they don't.

With regard to videos, we have a number posted on Youtube... and they are all linked here: http://www.sl113.org/index.php/Video.html and http://www.sl113.org/index.php/VideoInstruction.html. But you are welcome to create a Youtube group if you like.

This is certainly a great WEBsite and a great WEBforum with a very avid membership community from all over the world, that contribute over the WEB to make this a great source of information.

But I'd like to see more of the CLUB side of things: regional MEETings, perhaps in partnership with the local MBCA groups (or not), more SOCIAL events where people can share ideas and forge friendships. I'd like to see a percentage of dues spent toward funding more local events.

We currently have only one official event: Blacklick, hosted by Joe and Mary Alexander. This happens every other year. How about expanding the program to host more social events?  If we want more folks to become full-members, how about a full-member ONLY event on one of those evenings?

Regarding dues, what is our primary expenditure? Keeping up the website (webspace, software maintenance, licenses, etc) and publishing Pagoda World and the newsletter. Personally, I think the newsletter is superfluous, and all those articles would make better copy in the PW magazine, in addition to possibly helping with improving PW frequency. I really think we should allocate some of our membership dues toward more events, or improving the CLUB side of our existing events, or something like that.

This really is something for Board members to address. However, we are primarily a Pagoda interest group, we do not aim to compete with local country Mercedes Benz clubs. They do typically not compete on our level of knowledge on Pagoda's, but we do not have sufficiently widespread local representation to be able to organise events everywhere -- we certainly encourage people to go to these MB associated club events to meet other members. Especially since we aim to be an international Pagoda club (it's in our charter) we have to use the WEB to exist. And we do so pretty effectively.

Cees Klumper, Naj, Garry, Tosh (are you at PUB ?), myself and others typically make an effort to attend the Pagoda University Blacklick (PUB). We don't manage all the time, every year. However, do you realise we organised two events in Europe? One in the Netherlands and one in the UK? Invitations, pictures, video, all was posted here. Cees and I are thinking about an event in France in 2010 and we would hope to entice some of our non-European members to attend that.

The point I'm trying to make is that if we divert club monies to events that are likely to be held in the US, and would attract US members only, we would start competing with the US Mercedes-Benz association, and we start losing the interest of members overseas. Members, without whose efforts this group and this website would not exist in the form it is today.

The Board has at some point in the past decided that:

• we encourage as many people to join our group as possible
• we offer many valuable services for free to all
• we try and find full members who contribute to our fixed costs (website hosting and Pagoda World and newsletter)
• but they benefit from this... and non-paying members are encouraged to become paying

In addition this club runs on international volunteer effort:

• events we organise are accessible to as many people as we can find (not just Full Members, but we do hope that those that attend find enough value to cough op the minimal charge of US$30 or EUR25 to become and remain members...
• Joe and Mary Alexander organise the PUB as a labour of love
• Pagoda World is edited and put together by volunteers
• and so is the website...

That's why I would be very careful of linking the Pagoda SL Group closer to the MBCA activities (it will make it more of a US club than an International group and potentially alienate lots of people) and making it more linked to full membership.

Finally and ultimately this is a decision of the membership of the group and the board of directors. I invite them all to speak up and pass on their views...

Peter

[Cees Klumper]

I think you put it quite well as far as I am concerned Peter. I think Pagoda enthusiasts can find a lot of information here and, what's even better, solid support from fellow enthusiasts whenever they have a particular problem. To boot, there is a very positive and friendly atmosphere that adds to the attraction of frequenting the site.

Finances - I am in the process of pulling together our financial statements again; our income from full membership dues is sufficient to support our current operations, so we don't at this time need to look to additional sources of funding e.g. through solliciting advertising. I happen to like the lack of banners and other advertising on the site.

Because of the large geographical spread of our members, I personally always encourage any live events to be financed through participant contributions, and that is how the Blacklick and other live events have been managed to date. The risk of the club starting to fund local events is that this will 'subsidize' those members in a position to attend such local event, while most other members will always be unable to attend because of the sheer geographical distances involved. In the end, the same cost is generated by the membership, so there would be actually no aggregate benefit from sponsoring events by the club, only this one serious drawback (at least in my opinion).

As for competing with other (national) clubs, I think we have so far always been able to work together with, and alongside, other MB clubs and have stayed away from being competitive. Most larger clubs cater to all Mercedes cars (starting from a certain age in many cases) and thus have a different focus - so there is actually no need to compete. Whenever I get calls or emails from Dutch Pagoda owners wanting to know about membership, I always encourage them to sign up as a basic member and also look into joining our general Dutch MB (recognized) club because some people look more for opportunities to take part in live events than others.

As we continue to grow I am hopeful there will be more live events, but there has to be critical mass in a geography to do this succesfully and, even more important, a lot of volunteer time and initiative present.

The ideal end result for me, if I can dream a little, is to ultimately have the majority of Pagoda owners worldwide make use of and be a part of this community, in whatever form that works best for them and their enjoyment of this elegant car.

[psmith]

We do encourage... and hope that professionals do share their knowledge on the forums. We have set aside a commercial board on the forum for them to advertise in. Dan Caron and Joe Alexander are currently the only ones that can make use of this commercial forum, but it does not see a lot of use.

I think that the commercial forum was locked for some time on the old site and maybe some commercial vendors didn't realize that it is now "Open for Business"  Maybe a sticky at the top explaining what the forum is for and what the ground rules are would get it going.   I appreciate this approach over banners.  It makes it clear to me that this is a site set up by enthusiasts, not created by a commercial interest in order to sell their products. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)