Wiring issues 101

[J. Huber]

Hi Waqas and others.

So I did some testing -- hope you can help me make heads or tails of it. I tried the testing procedure in the wiki (see Peter, I do go there first..) where I removed the fuse and watched the amp reading as I put them in. Now, I used my multimeter -- was told that would work for the test. I had it set on 10A and with leads on negative battery cable and negative battery post, inserted fuses one at a time.

Fuse number 1 is the only one that registered anything    001                Is this significant?
All others did nothing                                                   000

I was also told another way to check is with all fuses in, test using the DC Volts setting. This way I got the following:

1. Doing straight battery test with all fuses in: 12.15
                                          with #1 out: 12.75

2. Testing with leads on negatives as above: 12.15 with #1 in
                                                           11.46 with #1 out             

Is this sounding like I tested things right? Is Fuse number 1 a problem child?

[Peter van Es]

What it means is that the short circuit that drained your battery is in the wiring that connects to fuse 1. So you look at the wiring diagram and find out everything that connects to fuse 1 and then trace that in the actual car. Fuse 1 connects to: Entrance light, parking light, clock, passing signal light, map light, hand lamp socket. So that's where you have to go look for your short...

It does not mean that fuse #1 itself is a problem.

Peter

[mbzse]

What it means is that the short circuit that drained your battery is in the wiring that connects to fuse 1. .../... map light...  So that's where you have to go look for your short...

The map light in the glove compartment lid is fed by a wire that may well be squeezed/insulation worn when wire passes from instrument panel to glove box lid, resulting in an electrical short.
Easy to disconnect wiring in order to test this, do it on the connector block just under the glove box, above the transmission tunnel
/Hans in Sweden

.

[bpossel]

James,

The map light is a good place to check for a short as Hans mentioned.
Another good place to check is the entrance light.  I had an electrical shorting problem last summer after I had my car back together again.  I ended up pulling all of my instruments out again, double-checking all the wires, etc..  for a possible crimp, short....  As I worked my way from left to right...  the next item I checked was the entrance light...  sure enough, it was the entrance light!  One side of the connection on the light was loose and touching the metal on the dash frame  .

Those of you that have replaced your entrance light with a new one know that the new ones are much cheaper in quality  !  The wires attach to the light via clips on each side vs a small screw type connection.  I like the old style much better!
Bob 

[waqas]

James, whilst you're at it, make sure you've got rubber grommets wherever wires are passing through a metal opening. You can get one of those "Help!" grommet sets from your local auto parts store to get a reasonable fit, until you locate the MB part (if you choose to). If you don't want to disconnect the wire, you can simply cut a slit in the grommet.

Bob, regarding new entrance lights: can just the plastic cover be swapped from new to old? This way I can keep the innards whilst replacing the cover. (mine is yellowing and cracked).

[bpossel]

Waqas,

Good question!  The discoloration is why I replaced mine.  If the lens could be replaced, keeping the original "innards", that would be nice....
Bob 

[J. Huber]

All very interesting -- keep the ideas coming. I was under there studying what I can see from number 1 --- and comparing notes to the wiring diagram. My attention is still on the red/white/blue flash to pass wire that comes off Number 1, since that is the one element of those Fuse 1 items that worked intermittenly -- then seems to have gone out before all this happened.

I will investigate entrance light and map light wires -- but also the others from number one. So how exactly do I test an individual wire?

Oh and some good news on the other front (the hi-beam indicator). Since I pulled the gauges again! I decided to double check the bulbs inside the center cluster. I did not do that before because they worked fine. Well, much to my surprise, as I pulled the backing off -- no bulb in the socket! I was ready to call PAS -- then discovered it was in the front part of the gauge. It had apparently unlatched from its socket. Twisted it back in -- and voila -- have my blue hi-beamer back! I also looked at my rheostat -- that you recall had stopped dimming. I'll be if there is no spring in there! So either it perished on the way out? or PAS did something to it? Either way -- the lights are on full -- which I guess is the brightside  . I can live with this one.

But back to my short: Thanks for the ideas -- I just have to figure out how to move from here.

JH

[J. Huber]

Well, just getting started on the expedition -- and I ran across this -- does it look suspicious to you?

It is a black wire that comes from the lower part of the clock (quartz repro). It is not the ground I don't think. It is exposed wire clipped under the left hand screw of the glovebox.

[waqas]

I've seen a ground wire hooked up there (on at least one of my cars). Why don't you disconnect it and repeat your experiments below to rule it out?

[J. Huber]

Good idea Waqas. And YES turns out that was the ground wire for the clock. Wire was black -- I was thinking a ground would be brown (or green!).

I now have in my possession a circuit test light -- and if I understand it correctly, I connect the clamp to the car body and touch the wire with the pointy end? With everything off, the light should not light up when I touch things? Where I am confused is, with fuse 1 there is always power -- so wouldn't it light up anyway?

How do I check for a short in a hot wire? hook to a positive terminal and wait for light to go out?

Oh and by the way -- if Fuse 1 is the culprit for drainage and I take the fuse out -- does this theoretically keep the battery from draining? I can't be taking the thing in for a charge every two minutes....
___________

Update as of Sunday evening: So I took out the glovebox, the clock and the radio -- in search of troublemaking wires behind the dash. I connected my multi-meter to the battery and watched the readout as I tinkered. Not sure why but now my battery is reading 12.5 with fuse 1 in and with it out. I did not do much except feel out some wires here and there. The reading drops a fraction to 12.43-48 as I open door, glove box, and maplight -- so I think that's normal.

My next plan is to get back to that flash to pass wire under the fuse box -- and see if my jostling it affects the battery reading. Does my technique seem reasonable?

[Peter van Es]

James,

with a healthy battery there is potentially very little voltage drop visible from a short. The best way is to verify the current flowing. No current means no short. Current means: something is working (a light, a motor) or you have a short. In one of your posts you indicated that when the meter was on the 10A range, it detected a current of 001. If that means 1A, it is likely to be a short circuit. If it means 0.01A or 0.001A that's more like an instrument light.

What you should look for are:

• loose wires, or damaged, or frayed wires with exposed ends able to touch bare or painted metal. Essentially you should not have any. If you find one, use the Voltmeter part of your instrument (attach the -ve black lead to a ground or the chassis, the +ve red lead to the loose, exposed wire). If it registers a voltage when everything is switched off (note: the voltage does not have to be 12 V, it can be anything over 0V) and your key is out of the ignition, that wire can cause a short
• trace the wire back (physically) to a connector. Try and identify the connector and the post position (you can carefully open up these connectors) and use the connector manual and the wiring diagram (and the colour of the wire if it is original) to determine where/what it should have been connected in the first place

Peter

[psmith]

Sorry James, not to be off topic, but WHAT are those white fuzzy things in the the radio opening?  Is your dog helping with the diagnostics?  Did a chicken fly out of your dash 

[J. Huber]

Hey Pete. As much as I'd like to say I've trained Fluffy to help me (or Quacky for that matter)... its just a terry cloth towel to let the radio and wires drape out of the opening! BTW, you can also see the rough and expanded opening for a larger radio... We have NO secrets here.

[hill]

James get your self a clip over amp meter. You should find one for ten to twenty dollars.

Start at the positive battery cable then go to the looms. If it shows power drain split the loom and check each wire independtly. 

[J. Huber]

Hey Daryl. That was fantastic advice. I never heard of the clamp-on tester but from the looks of googling it-- that will be much easier for me to use.

And Peter, the reading on fuse one was 0.01 which strikes me as ok.

Just a quick update. I spent a lot of time yesterday inspecting my wiring. Essentially pulled the entire dash apart (except heater and cig lighter). Looked at every connection and inch of wiring I could get to. Then it was major yoga time to look closely at the nest (under the steering wheel). Its so ridiculous how many wires are just bunched up there. Maybe my car is unique but its really a pain to figure out what is what.

After poking, prodding, and staring, I really only saw one or two wires that had some wire showing (just a bit really). And using a voltmeter, very little response. (Daryl's tool would be a lot easier here). Anyway, I isolated the only ones that looked ominous -- the windshield wiper wire (black and purple) and perhaps the flash to pass lead (red/white/blue). So guys -- I resorted to the old fashioned fix -- electrical tape!

More testing showed that my vital signs were good. The flash to pass worked twice and then not. Darn. So that remains my only thorn. I checked one side of the multi-pronger, and it was fine. I also looked at stalk. That looks good. So not knowing where to look next ... I succumbed. Threw everything back together and went for a top-down drive! Pheww. I am ok now.

Thanks all.

[graphic66]

Here is a test to check for a parasitic draw.
Procedure:
1. Disconnect the negative battery cable from the battery.
2. Wire the two leads of either the voltmeter or light bulb  between the disconnected battery cable and the negative battery post. You should see the battery drain at this time on the voltmeter (or see the light bulb  lit).
3. Pull the fuses in the car one at a time, and observe if the battery drain stops. When the drain stops, you've found the problem circuit and need to investigate why.
4. If you've pulled all the fuses and saw no change, the problem circuit may be one with no fuse in it like the alternator or starter circuit. You would need to disconnect them manually to test

[J. Huber]

Possible breakthrough on the flash to pass!!

I just decided to take my stalk apart again, this time knowing which wire I was after. However, the wiring looks pretty good and tight...

However again -- I tested the headlight flasher and now it comes on consistently (ie every time) WHEN I hold the stalk down as if to make a left turn! If the ignition is on, the signals come on as well. With no keys, only when I pull down. If I pull straight back nothing until I ease it down... Now, to figure out what that might mean? I removed the two big screws but the unit did not want to come out...Is there a trick.

[Peter van Es]

James,

that may mean something INSIDE the switch might have been creating the problems. Disassemble carefully and reassemble!

Peter

[J. Huber]

Well Peter you are probably right -- because...

Short-lived success. emphasis on short. I was trying to see what I could -- and then out went the flasher again. Now nothing. What's more -- I then tried Graphics procedure: the battery sits at 11.75 hooked up that way (voltmeter between negative clamp and post). When I remove number 1 -- it drops to 3.5 . all other fuses stay steady. So if the short is in that switch -- would it make the drain so substantial. Flash to pass is on number 1 -- I have that tattooed on my forehead...

[Andres G]

James,

I read your comment after my mention of the washer/flash to pass post and came here to check out this message. It seems you've checked everything possible and that the guys have you on the right track.

On my side, I can tell you I've fixed the windscreen washer today after running a few tests with it. Turns out it was not wired propperly so all I had to do was connect the right wires on it. I also worked on the flash to pass, which I believe will be fixed with a new relay... only if I could tell which one it is???

The symptom on mine was the following: I pulled the stalk backward towards the steering wheel and it worked a few times, then stopped working completely and since then, I've not been able to get it back to work. I have checked fuses and they all seem fine, so my next test will be the relay.

On the upside of this, I also discovered the clearance light on the passenger side headlight is not working. I will have to replace that bulb soon.

Keep the updates coming, they have been really interesting to follow.

Regards,
Andres G

[J. Huber]

Glad to see I have company on this one, Andres! You got me curious about this relay thing -- what have you heard?. I hope to take a closer look at the stalk switch tomorrow or Friday. One thread here by our esteemed Longtooth scares the living daylights out of me with all its intricacies related to the stalk. A new switch is even more frightening!

What has me concerned is wondering if the current state of my stalk switch is draining the battery. Last check showed fuse 1 drawing. For a couple days there the draining had stopped-- then whilst messing with the passer things went into drain mode again. Is it possible a wire in the stalk (hot one) gets in a position to drain one minute and then works its way to not draining the next? Sorry just thinking out loud.

[Naj ✝︎]

James,

I read your comment after my mention of the washer/flash to pass post and came here to check out this message. It seems you've checked everything possible and that the guys have you on the right track.

I also worked on the flash to pass, which I believe will be fixed with a new relay... only if I could tell which one it is???

Regards,
Andres G

There are on relays for controlling the headlights.

naj

[Andres G]

Well, I guess Naj sorted this out for us... there being no relays running the headlights, I too have to get working on the stalk as I think that is the root of the problem in my case (and probably yours). Thanks for the input Naj!

Does someone have a diagram on how to pull the switch out of the steering column? Does it come out fairly easy?

Thanks,
Andres

[Peter van Es]

Read the following on the wiper / indicator / flash to pass feature and stalk...

• http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=3711.0
• http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9311.0
• http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=554.0 -- High beam flasher on column switch -- this is a Longtooth special issue

It's about time someone stuck the end result in the Technical Manual!

James, interesting too how many times your name comes up in posts about electrical problems.... this is not the first time it's gone on the blink, has it 

Peter

[J. Huber]

James, interesting too how many times your name comes up in posts about electrical problems.... this is not the first time it's gone on the blink, has it 
Peter

Well, you would sure think so wouldn't ya. It seems like most of my wiring issues over the years were minor annoyances or just plain stupid things like accidentally unplugging something. But what is interesting is many of my problems are sporadic -- so I just keep plodding along hoping the gremlins stay at bay...They have for the most part.


But alas, back to the "current problem" -- I decided to take the stalk apart and have a look -- thinking we might have 'er surrounded. Andres, the threads Peter offered are really helpful -- but here is my general description of how it goes:

1. I removed the steering wheel to give me some room since my plan was to tinker with the stalk still attached to the column. Complete removal of the connector pin and pig-tail is much more involved.
2. Unplug the large pin connector under the dash that heads up the column.
3. Remove the rubber cover on stalk. There are two large screws. Take them out carefully so as not to drop them in column.
4. The unit can be pulled out now -- if you feed a bit of the pigtail up from the bottom of the column -- it will come out about 3-4 inches. Be careful because the two large wires are the horn and they stay connected.
5. At this point you can inspect the wires and their connections to the unit.
6. You can then remove the 4 small screws that hold the cover on the switch itself. Be ready.
7. The moment the cover comes off, a little copper piece will want to jump out. It sits on a little spring, and with cover off, it comes off. The curved part faces in.
8. At this point, you can clean the contacts, inspect the mechanisms, and maybe identify issues.

My unit was really not bad. My wiring was all attached as far as I could tell. There was a little dirt and grime in the crevices which I cleaned with a Q-tip and alcohol. I also emery clothed the metal contacts. The only thing that caught my attention was one of the rivet like things (you see when you look down into the switch with cover off) was unattached. Just floating around in there. May explain why my stalk on right turns doesn't hold. I took the piece out -- not much I can do with it -- others may have tried to reattach it with solder?

Anyway, put it all back to see if the cleaning helped. Nope. Everything works except the flash to pass. As for turn signal lock and correct, left still locks -- right doesn't (but didn't before except on occasion...)

So, I am back to square one. Is there any link between the light switch itself and the wire that feeds the flash to pass. I am now trying to find some part of the hot wire that could be grounding... also, are there supposed to be little metal collars in each of the holes in the 12 prong plug connectors? where the pins go in. I see one hole that is missing one.

Sorry to be so longwinded...