Collector value - Does previous damage destroy?

[Kopie]

I'm sort of a newbee to Pagodas, but have done a bit of research on SL's since I have always had an interest in them.  If a 280sl 113 has had front fenders replaced at some point and therefore no longer has the notches, does this pretty much destroy the value of the car?  Also, is a 5-speed desirable because of rarity or or undesirable because of lack of parts for repair?
Any input would be appreciated.
Thank you!

[waqas]

If a 280sl 113 has had front fenders replaced at some point and therefore no longer has the notches, does this pretty much destroy the value of the car?

Define "destroy". I think it will certainly diminish the value of an otherwise number 1 car. However, if the rest of the car is a number 2 or worse, then a careful and well-executed fender replacement should not have much of an effect, in my opinion. Correctly done repairs should never have an effect, let alone "destroy" the values.

Also, is a 5-speed desirable because of rarity or undesirable because of lack of parts for repair?

Highly undesirable-- forward any 5-speeds you find directly to me. I'll do you a favour and prevent you from incurring any costs. 

But seriously, the lack of parts is certainly an issue, but one that is far out-weighed by the rarity and desirability of these transmissions. Ask Jim Villers or Dan Caron (who actually have these transmissions in their cars).

[Kopie]

I know of a '69 (red w/ black interior) that has had front fenders replaced some time ago.  Decent job, although metering indicates that they were cut about the corner of the hood.  No weld marks on the lips.  It runs good and actually looks pretty nice despite a mediocre paint jpb.  Interior is leather and is very presentable.  One rear fender was replaced, probably because of rust as the other meters signs of previous repair.  The bottoms of all panels except the rear that was replaced(between the trim) doesn't meter at all, so probably rust repair as well.  The pans, trunk floor, rockers, and frame look very good.  I can probably buy it for $22,000.  It's a three owner car, but not very well documented.  Includes the two tops and actually has the levers.  Thank you for the input as I am trying to decide if this is a good deal.

[Andres G]

Far from being an expert, I can tell you I've seen cars that sound much better than that you've described above and that were offered for a few bucks more than $22K. I'd suggest you continue searching, there are many out there still to be found.

Regards,
Andres G

[Kopie]

My first instinct is to walk too, but then it's a 5-speed.  If it wasn't a 5-speed I would have already walked.  What to do, what to do?

[Andres G]

I would think that a 5 speed transmission is very appealing, but honestly, it is not the only thing in the car that should be appealing to you. I'm sure a 280 SL with a 5 speed is rare, but then again, are you looking to get a "rare car" or are you after a nice driveable pagoda?

If you're after the first one, then a "rare car" that is, but probably not worth more than a couple grand on top of a similar car with a 4 speed or an auto if in sub-par condition. On the other hand, if the latter appeals more to you, then you'll be able to find what you're looking for if you continue looking, that is for sure.

I too had seen an extremely rare 250 SL Euro with a 5 speed during my search, but it turned out not to be the car for me, so I moved on and finally, a few months after, I found the car I was looking for.

Good luck with your search.
Regards,
Andres G

[67_euro250]

As has been stated above, what's it worth to you?  If you're buying the car as an investment, replacement repairs are mostly undesirable.  If you're buying it to drive and enjoy, then the repairs may be a fine bargaining point on your purchase price. 

If it's the latter, you might try driving it around a little.  I've been driving a 67 5-speed SL for 20 years and I have to say, it's far from the best transmission in feel and function.  Personally I vastly prefer the manual, but it's not for everyone.  After a test drive, you may prefer the auto.

[Benz Dr.]

Anyone who turns down a 5 speed car ( and has the money to buy it ) doesn't know what they're doing as long as it's a fairly decent car.The only big detraction would be a car far over priced for the relative condition that its in.
The 5 speed is worth 5 K or more on the open market if it's any good at all. Pull that out of the car, sell it, and your '' 22K not so great car '' is now only 17K, even if you have to buy another trans to replace the real 5 speed which only an idiot would end up doing in the first place.

Does that sort of answer your question?

[jsaylor]

Dan,
Tell us how you really feel

[Benz Dr.]

Well, you could always throw a big block in it and tub the ass end for that 70's look. Go get a mullet, some red dog 60's and some blue sex lights for under the dash. That outta do it...... for completely destroying any value.

On second thought, I see guys doing that now who really believe they are cool, so forget it.

[Peter van Es]

Dan means like this:


Peter

[mdsalemi]

Here, here, Dr. Benz, to each their own.  I've driven a 5-speed and I'll take an automatic on today's roads any day of the week--and I'm glad I have one.  I'm happy you have a 5-speed that you are happy with, but don't suggest we all would want one.  I don't want one.

[Benz Dr.]

That's not what I'm saying. A 5 speed isn't for everyone but I wouldn't turn down a good buy because I didn't like the colour or something like that.
 
If you're going to own an old car it might as well be something rare and desirable so that it's worth all the effort of restoration and ownership. I'm thinking in terms of what works even if it doesn't always make sense.
 I don't want something that everyone else has. Do you ?

[mdsalemi]

As I said, to each their own.

Our W113's are, for the most part, "rare enough" and desirable enough, at least by my standard.  With only 50K units made more than 40 years ago, we can't call it common.

I wouldn't turn down a good buy either, but if I were looking to buy a car to drive (as I do mine) and enjoy doing so, for me I would not consider a 5-speed.  I have a friend here in Michigan that has an extensive collection of 1940's to 1960's US cars, and to your point each of them is rare and desirable.  There are no 1957 Chevys in the collection, but only very un-common cars generally with some historical significance.  He does not drive them however, they all live on battery tenders in a well hidden and protected industrial park.  He doesn't often give tours, and only shows a few cars a year.  It is, I suppose, an investment, but only if you want your own museum.

Understand where this is coming from Dan--I would not consider a 4-speed either .  For where I am both in life and geographically, I prefer an automatic.  I also don't have an issue with rear axle ratios, or RPM's at speed.  Yes, I'm turning 4K at 70MPH...and Peter and I will be doing that all the way to PUB in July.

For many years I had standard shift cars, and while no master am fully capable of heel and toe, double clutching, etc.  I drove a 5-speed and found it difficult (thus not enjoyable); I no longer enjoy shifting.  I've driven Pagoda's with the rear axle ratio changed; and while I found the car considerably more civilized at speed (especially considering the factory wind screen) it's not something I'd rush out and do--but that's just me.  When I feel like shifting I walk 2 doors down to my friend John's home, and he gives me the keys to his Porsche Cayman.  He's funny that way. (BAD NEIGHBOR!  I have yet to give him the keys to my 113! )

I really am happy that you and a select and distinguished group of others have 5 speeds and enjoy them.  Few outside the MB community would know you have such an exclusive car.  I'm also really happy that others have 230's and 250's and that they are not all 568 Signal Red like mine.

As the French say, vive la différence!

[TR]

Michael -- I could not agree more with your response regarding individual choices/preferrences.  So I echo your comment of "vive la différence"!

To take the idea a step or two further, my attitude (as you may already know) is that modest & reversible enhancements need not constitute Cardinal sins.  Simple examples might include retractable seat belts, or the addition of a wind deflector, or replacing the old Frigiking compressor with a Sanden unit along with a higher capacity blower motor (plus a few more little things that have allowed for terrific A/C performance).  And while this would be pushing the envelope for most, something I've found that really adds comfort for year-around top-down driving is the addition of Webasto (a M-B supplier) seat heaters, seat ventiilators/coolers; not to mention Webasto's built-in back massagers.  These seat mods were not a big deal; just required the additional purchase (plus installation work) of a new set of pads along with new seat-face leather required to supports the heating, ventilating/cooling & massage functions.  Not for everyone I know, but then "vive la différence"!

[Garry]

Aw, come on Dan,
I won't pick on you, Lets pick on the people that have fitted the 5 speed as a non standard mod.  I want one so I can match my data card but they have all been taken up for non standard modifications and as a result they are now worth a Kings ransom or maybe I should say a Presidents reprieve. :'(

[Benz Dr.]

Yeah, I know. I'm sure you'd be happy to find one in a car or not.

Here's how I look at it.

In Canada there are 32 million people
 maybe 20 300SL's
about 100  190SL's
maybe 200  113's
Of those 200 cars there are 3 or 4 with  5 speeds.

I've worked on 300SL's, 220 Cab A, 170S Cab, 300 b four door convertable, 190SLR,
300SE RHD and a few other rare cars. I've also had the chance to drive all of them and get a sense of how this old stuff feels on the road. I've driven faster cars and ones that were more comfortable but the only thing that's more fun next to a 300SL is my own car. And it's more rare than almost all of the above. 

MB built 1,400 cars with ZF five speeds. Other cars included 108, 109, 111 and 112. The ultimate 5 speed car is a 300SE Cab of which only 3 were built. I know MB owns one of them because I saw it at the Meadowbrook car show. MB had a display and one of the guys told me it was one of the three made. That's rare and something I'd want.
 The 300SE Cab is rare enough but it still won't bring the bucks a 3.5 Cab will. Not sure if they put 5 speeds in those cars but I've seen them in 4 speed so if they did I suppose that would be the holy grail of MB cars.

[Andres G]

Myself, I did pass up on a rare 250 SL with the 5 speed like I said before, and while some people may consider this "not knowing what you're doing", I consider it the total opposite. That is, knowing exactly that... letting go of a car that would otherwise be a barely acceptable SL if it didn't have a 5 speed tranmission.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to get one with the 5 speed, but I'm not willing to sacrifice on another front just to get the 5 speed... to me, it's just not worth it.

I think Michael nailed it with his comment. I absolutely agree: Vive la difference.

Regards,
Andres G

[Benz Dr.]

Really? So why did you pass up on such a rare car? So far I've heard nothing that tells me what was wrong with it.

 I've explained my point in great detail and all it takes is someone who has the same or similar opinon and it suddenly makes a person right? It doesn't work that way, even if this isn't the least bit about being right.
 
I know old cars and what makes them valuable. A rare car can be worth almost nothing and some common cars can bring good money. Aside from having some car be collectable purely for all the wrong reasons lets talk about real value.
The actual build of the car has a lot to do with it's value. Low production numbers on high end cars can mean future value but not always. High end Euro cars are part of this but so are almost all of the full classics from the '30's. Past ownership can add value but it may not make the car special other than that. In almost all cases, it's how much somone wants it, and how rare it is that makes the biggest difference.
 Think of 300 SL's. They're rare, very well built, exspensive when new, very fast cars for they're time and oh yeah, rare. The 300SL is one of the very few cars that's worth more as a coupe than a roaster. Did I mention rare? ( 1,400 made. The first 29 were alloy and are worth twice what a steel car is worth because they're, what? Oh yeah, that rare word again... )

I'm not adding any American cars from the 50's and 60's because they have a following of their own. A lot of them have been highly modified so are not original cars. They may be valueable but a lot of that is an over cooked market anyway.

Our cars are NOT that rare. 50,000 makes them pretty common in terms of rarity. 190SL's are half as common and they're still only sort of rare and only because most of them are rusted out junk now - they had no under coating at all unlike our cars. Our cars are high quality but their current value really doesn't translate that very much. You would thnk they'd be worth more - it's about how rare they are folks.

300SL's are pretty rare. They made about 3200 all told so that's fairly low production numbers. Look at late 60's American power house cars and it's still the ones with only a few made that bring the biggest bucks. It's all about the right car and the rareity of that car.

One other thing that adds to a cars value aside from condition or an original example is rare options. If that option added some performance such as a factory installed engine or rare colour, trim or interior, that too can add value. If fact any number of things can add value but there's nothing like some rare, desireable thing that almost everyone would want if they could get it or afford it to add value.

Of all those optional things on our cars the one thing that stands out above all the rest is the 5 speed trans. It's the thing I hear people say they want or can they get one to put in thier car. It isn't radios, A/C, or ash trays ( OK they'd sell well but were a standard part on the car ) or skii racks, it the 5 speed. It's the one thing I get asked about more than any other optional part on the car.

I rest my case.

[Andres G]

Dan,

I posted on this website while searching for my car and gave some explanation on why I decided to pass on that specific car. I'll gladly explain this to you now as I feel you'd like to know exactly why would I do such a crazy thing as letting it go (I initially did not think it would be adding much to the question posted originally on this message, that was why I did not post specifics on it in the first place).

The car I saw had some body damage on the rear right quarter panel. It had been repaired by a body shop that probably did not use the best materials and tools to get the job done right, therefore, some bondo/sanding was noticeable underneath the paint in that section. Not only that, but several cracks on the paint leading up to paint chips on top of the rear decklid (in front of the top right corner of the trunklid) were showing primer/bondo below. Although I was not able to correctly asses the extent of the original damage, it did not feel like minor based on the extent of the repairs performed on it.

The owner stated that both front fenders were the original ones, but only one of them showed the "creases" on the inside. If rust is a concern when buying these cars, then this one was not lacking in this department, having some noticeable rust holes on both footwells and all over the trunk floor (cheaply painted over with flat black paint).

If this had not been sufficient to steer me away from this car, then probably lacking a working heater would do it... but still, even this is easy to fix and relatively inexpensive when compared to the potential superior value of the car given it's 5 speed transmission. I clearly understand this too.

Maybe it was a combination of this, plus the way the car was presented to me, the fact that although it was an Euro spec car, it had the headlights of the US model, the MPH speedometer and some wear on the interior... This things probably put the car over the top considering the asking price at the time. Still, this may not be enough to explain to you why I would pass up on such rare car.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is something far more spiritual. Something that has more to do with "what you feel about your car" than specs, popularity, collectability, rarity or any other fact-based data. I did not buy this car for it's future value or, to be specific, I did not buy it to try and sell it for more money in the future. I chose it because of what it means to me, what and how it makes me feel. At least for myself, when I drive this car, I do it because I want to get away from all that clutters my mind in regards to things that are tangible, comparable or measurable. I drive my car because it gives me pleasure and although there may be a relative price for pleasure, I am far a better judge on what my own pleasure is worth than any other person on the planet.

Not sure if everyone here will agree, but I bet this is one of the only cars that most members of this forum posses, that makes them turn and look over their shoulder after parking anywhere, just to take another peek at it before entering the venue they're headed to.

In the end, you've very well explained why you think that a car with a 5 speed is something that you would value due to it's rarity (only 850 of them were ever made) and I perfectly understand that, I just don't share the same way of thinking. Honestly, things like those rarely ever invade my mind while I drive my pagoda... all there is there is open air and "Achtung Baby" playing on the background

Once again, Viva la diferencia!
Andres G

[Dash808]

Both of you make perfect sense.  To each his own. 

Hypothetically, say I swapped out my 4 spd for a 5 spd tranny, would that make my car more "desirable" in the long run, as opposed to having its original transmission still installed?  Just curious as the 5 spd being more "desirable" still would not be original.    I'm thinking that it would be more attractive since it seems matching #'s and original equipment doesn't seem to matter as much in these cars, unless the car is 100% original and untouched, then it would be smarter to keep the original tranny. 

Just rambling and thinking aloud...
I can see Andres point of view since the added expense for the 5 spd may have outweighed the benefits and he is perfectly happy with his decision.

My 250sl has been in the family for 27 years, so that's spiritual enough for me, but personally if I were in the market I would look for a well maintained 113 with it's original 5 spd to make a spiritual connection with 

[Garry]

I think every case is on its own.  I would love to have a ZF 5 speed to match up with my data card. I will accept the cost and the potential for lack of spares and what some say is a notchy gear change. Why, because matching my data card to me is important. 

I could also see why someone would steer away from a 5 speed is it was not an original fit.  Why others put the five speed in if it is not on their data card is hard for me to understand. Initial cost and spares availability obviously are not a factor. You would think that it would not be done to lower revs, that would be a complete over kill, the axle change is much cheaper, far less risky on the spares front and not such a major diversion from the original car. So what is it that makes  many want to do such a non standard modification.  To others that is not such a factor and thus the difference in what people will accept as non standard modification and still feel good about their car is all that is important.

That is why we see all sorts of modifications on members cars from engine changes, gear box changes, light changes, color changes, interior changes  etc etc. As Dash 808 said, to each his own. 

Now how do I convince someone with a mismatched transmission to part with their 5 speed gearbox?

[Benz Dr.]

So what model was this car and how much was it? Nothing you describe would make it that bad but as I said earlier it would depend on the condition relative to the price. We have some sort of idea of what it looked like but not the price.

This isn't a matter of personal preference - the 5 speed car will always be worth more than the same exact car with a 4 speed or auto. If Mike's car was a 5 speed it would definately be more than it already is and it's a top notch car right now.

I'm simply stating facts here. It better be a complete piece of junk with a huge price before you walk away from it.

 

[Garry]

Someone once said to me that I should buy a car with the 5 speed  that has originally had a 4 speed transmission and swap mine over then re-sell the car.  That would show how much difference there is in value. $3k $5k $8k, who knows but obvously some value in the 5 speed gear box alone.

If I had known that my car was data carded 5 speed with its 4 speed fitted instead, and now knowing the difficulty in getting a 5 speed, I may well not have brought it. Mind you it gives me something to do in trying to find a gear box for the next few years!

[waqas]

In the past few years, I've seen at least two different ZF 5 speed transmissions sold on fleabay (with bell-housing, flywheel, clutch & pressure plates, linkage rods, etc), and they each sold for 5k or more.

I've purchased a couple of used 4 speed transmissions in good shape myself, each for a few hundred.