Collector value - Does previous damage destroy?

[Kopie]

For what it's worth, the car I should have bought, but didn't because of replaced front fenders and rear quarter, as well as filler in all fenders on the bottom is now on Ebay.  Whoever bought it says it was originally a 4speed so maybe it got your 5speed! Thanks for all of the input!  I consider this a valuable source for advice and knowledge.

[Benz Dr.]

I've seen just the box sell for 5K and book value is at least that much over any other car. The linkage and drive shaft is something you could make but it has its own ZF bell housing.

Like them, hate them, pine for one, pass one up because the car has other issues....... well, it really doesn't matter. It's the one factory option that adds real value to the car that no others do.

My initial point was that I figured if I was going to have something a bit different than everyone else, then it might as well be worth all the effort.

[Andres G]

So what model was this car and how much was it? Nothing you describe would make it that bad but as I said earlier it would depend on the condition relative to the price. We have some sort of idea of what it looked like but not the price.

Dan, the car was presented for sale by it's 4th owner and the asking price was $38K. Indicated mileage was above 60K miles although there were no service or repair records to prove this, just a couple of receipts for oil changes dating back no more than two years. You may believe what I described would not make it that bad, unfortunately you were not able to see the car in person to judge for yourself.

This isn't a matter of personal preference - the 5 speed car will always be worth more than the same exact car with a 4 speed or auto. If Mike's car was a 5 speed it would definitely be more than it already is and it's a top notch car right now.

This is where I believe we all agree. A 5 speed car is worth more than a 4 speed or an auto, no questions asked - this goes beyond prefference.

I'm simply stating facts here. It better be a complete piece of junk with a huge price before you walk away from it.

Here however, is where I do not agree with your way of seeing things. The statement above may make perfect sense for you and it is completely understandable... yet, I just don't think the same way you do. It is clear for me what I choose to walk away from and why.

To put it in perspective I'll venture using an analogy: I believe most of us can say we like ALL the models portrayed in a Victoria Secret catalog. Still there will be some who will preffer them blonds others brunettes, ones may like them with "natural attributes" while others preffer "aftermarket enhancements", same can be said for height, waist, eye color, etc, etc. 

Let's suppose we can compare these women to our cars (female readers: please do not let this comparison offend you... it's only for illustrative purposes), and that we could compare our car's values to their salary as models or supermodels. Well, there will be more expensive cars and like we said before, the 5 speeds will be at the top of the price list... there will also be models that are paid a few $$$ more for their performances than others. There are measurable factors affecting the values of the cars (let's call these the "hard" factors) and un-measurable factors (we'll call these "soft" factors) like color prefferences for instance.

Now, is it possible that you'd accept that all values are determined by a combination of hard and soft factors? This would mean that the value of a car is not only determined by the factory equipment, optionals and mileage for example, but also by the prefferences of the public that is willing to buy one. Does this make sense to you?

If this were to make sense for you, then, how could you determine which model (car or female) would you be willing to pay for and how much would you shell out??? Let me answer this one for you: You'd have to weigh in your hard and soft factors, then look among what is available in the market and check how much "hard factors" your checkbook can afford. Only then will you make your decision.

Now, earlier on you said that in these type of cars you do not "just walk away because you do not like the color". That is a statement based on a soft factor, thus showing us your prefference is to priviliege hard factors such as a 5 speed over softer ones, such as color... hang on, almost finished here.

Would you be able to determine what are the hard and soft factors that attract you to any particular woman? If so, all you have to do to be able to understand the way I see or think about these things (like I said before, I understand your way of thinking... it just so seems you do not understand mine) is relate your way of choosing women to my way of choosing an SL. As I do not plan to "pimp" my SL -this means that I do not pretend to profit from it- I am able to base my selection on many more of the soft factors than the hard ones... this basically means that can actually I preffer to chose my car based on the paint color or the interior rather than sticking with a color I do not like but a transmission that is in fact, much more desirable.

At the end of the day, that is exactly what the statement "Vive la difference" means...

Regards,
Andres G

[Dash808]

Vive la difference, and I'll take the Victoria Secret model with the overdrive!

Thanks Andres for getting this thread on track 

[Benz Dr.]

Hummmm..... it never went off track. Just off course a bit.

 At 38K it could have been an OK buy if it was solid. Had you quoted that bit of info up front your comparisons would have been less needed - not that they were anyway. ( sigh )

 

[Andres G]

Hummmm..... it never went off track. Just off course a bit.
 At 38K it could have been an OK buy if it was solid. Had you quoted that bit of info up front your comparisons would have been less needed - not that they were anyway. ( sigh )

 
 
Honestly, your reply disappoints me.
Andres

[waqas]

For what it's worth, the car I should have bought, but didn't because of replaced front fenders and rear quarter, as well as filler in all fenders on the bottom is now on Ebay.  Whoever bought it says it was originally a 4speed so maybe it got your 5speed! Thanks for all of the input!  I consider this a valuable source for advice and knowledge.

Keep in mind that the only 5-speed available on the 113 from the factory was a ZF. I've seen a non-ZF 5-speed installed in a pagoda.

When looking at a car with a 5-speed, one should visually verify that the transmission installed is indeed the ZF before making any buying decisions based on it.

[hkollan]

It must be  my ignorance and/or lack of experience with the 5speed ZF gearbox in a pagoda.
 Or is there something obvious that I'm overlooking.
But I just haven't figured out why this options is so sought after and therefore commends such a huge premium. Ok you lower the revs a little when cruising and it's a pretty rare option. The first  can be achieved pretty easily with a rear end ratio change. Just picked up a 3.46 axle that I plan to put in a pagoda. Then again you get a gearbox where getting spare parts seems to be more of a problem than with the factory 4speed or Automatic.
 And if low production numbers  is the main factor then why is W108 280 SEL 3.5 (791 units produced) one of the rarest post war Mercedes, basically not worth anything more than a any other similar W108.

[Benz Dr.]

If you guys don't get it by now, you never will. I said earlier that rare doesn't always mean something is worth anything. 107's will never be worth all that much due to the huge number produced. Same goes for 108's and 109's although the 6.3 brings a bit more than average due mostly to all that power under the hood.
111's aren't worth that much except the Cab's and only the 3.5 cab is worth real money at well over 100K for a nice example. Remember, I'm talkinjg serious collectors here, not wanabes.

 The 113 five speed car isn't worth THAT much more than a regular car but it's still more collectable due to the low production numbers. Sticking a different rear axel in the car or some other 5 speed doesn't cut it all. It's makes the car more drivable or nicer on the road but that's no different than many other simliar mods that people do. None of that stuff is original and only adds value in the minds of beholders. They may, or may not be good deals and people may pay for such things but for serious collectors they don't mean squat.

I bought my car because it IS a REAL 5 speed. I paid a lot for it 15 years ago and I've done quit a bit of restoration on it since then. I bought it to keep it not to cash in later but if I had to sell I suppose it might make it sell better.  It doesn't matter if there are no parts available or a rear axel is easier to find; it's the fact that it's a rare 113 option - the only one people really want.  This isn't about personal preference, opinion, or wishfull thinking, it's based soley on fact.

[Garry]

And I concur with Dan,  It is a rare option and when an original 5 speed car, and by that I mean one that is datacarded with that option comes on the market its a rarity and it will always bring a premium because the market place thinks so. There were 800 of them built.  A datacarded 4 speed that has been fitted with a 5 speed gear box on the other hand will only be worth what the extra 5 speed gear box is worth, lets say $5000 less the cost of a replacement 4 speed say $2500 to get it to its original state. So bottom line is that a car with a 5 speed gear as original equipment, value? the market certainly thinks it a rarity and is worth a lot more. A 4 speed vehicle converted to 5 speed, only the cost difference between a 4 speed and a 5 speed gearbox, maybe a couple of thousand dollars.

[66andBlue]

Garry,
looks like you are correct about an original 4-speed with a swapped in 5-speed having less appeal.
There is one on eBay right now (Item number: 200347797602) that received a high bid of about 24K first time around. It is now listed again with a buy-it-now price of $30K, obo.

[hkollan]

OK I'm not the one who will argue with the market, and it's clear that, and for rarity or comfort or both, the market is willing to  pay a premium for original 5speed cars.
Dan, you mention the 300 SEL 6.3s as an exception to the W109s bringing a only little more than average.
 Even with as many as around 6500 units produced, a few top quality low mileage 6.3s have brought around $100k in the last years.  In my book that's  not a little bit above average for W108/W109.
WHen you talk about serious collectors or wannabes I didn't quite get what you where getting at.

[Benz Dr.]

I saw a really nice 6.3 sell for less than 20K at the Toronto auction this past spring. It had everything done and full documentaion with about 65,000 miles. I thought the guy got a good buy.
So much of this depends on the location and timing of the sale. Unlike real estate ( which isn't worth much these days ) the location has less to do with it but is defibately a factor. You can move the car around unlike a house so cars might be better investements right now. All I know is that cars ( at least most of them ) have fallen off in value right now. The 6.3 that sold for over 100K would be the exception - I was talking about average number 3 cars of which a 6.3 will generally sell for more. There's no way to say alewaysd about any of this.

The wanabe reference is probably a bit more vauge. Serious collectors usually know what to look for and do a lot of research before a purchase. You see examples of this at B-J where a guy like Jay Leno shows up and buys a V 16 Cadilac. He has the money to buy it but he wants it for his collection and knows more about that car than most so called experts. Some other guy bids against him that also has the money but doesn't care about the car at all. He just wants to be seen on TV bidding against Leno. That's a wanabe.

Maybe not the best example but I'm sure you get the picture.

[hkollan]

Dan,
 
OK thanks for making that point clear to me. The 6,3s I am referring are of what I see as real collector quality are very rare and  well preserved samples with perfect original paint and interiors and extremely low miles. I know of at least 4-5 cars in this range. Of which the last one I believe was sold just a few months ago.  Since I own a few 6.3s I think they are undervalued but then again I'm not exactly neutral. Funny you should mention Jay Leno, since he was praising the 6,3 in one of his videos last year, and some months ago actually went ahead and bought one.

So get a good one now while they're cheap! Serious collectors do! ;-) Enough hype and off-topic ranting. Thanks for listening.

[Benz Dr.]

Actually, I do own one but it will never see the road again. Most people fear those cars because of the air suspension and other exspensive parts.