Author Topic: Has the value of our cars tanked???  (Read 40212 times)

66andBlue

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2010, 04:21:34 »
.... I for one would propose that we don't criticize someones' hard work and label it excessive by attaching the word overrestored to it....
Bernd,
I am at a loss how you could conclude that I criticized someone’s hard work.  If you read my message carefully you’ll notice that over-restored is in parentheses and followed by a question mark.  In other words I asked a question and as graphic66 pointed out the polished manifolds and other engine parts are not what a traditional restoration would look like. On the other hand I could have also asked whether the car is under-restored since looking at the undercarriage there is no metal part visible in its natural color or CAD plated color, it was simply and completely painted black.  And whatever paint was left was used to spray the underside of the hood.  It may have required much hard work but it is not what we are used to seeing after a restoration.
After all it was the seller who wrote: All sheet metal and undercarriage is original ..  Highly Detailed, Show Quality Engine Bay  .. Highly Detailed Undercarriage 
and who by the way, was not the hard working restorer.   
I believe Michael Salemi once described quite accurately what one should expect from a restoration: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4044.0

Many members here - and I am one of them - start a restoration project because of the fun involved and the personal satisfaction one can get out of it as you correctly pointed out. Some do partial and others very substantive or even complete restorations but I have yet to read a post here criticizing them for doing too much or too little. 

What has been done often, however, is to look in detail at cars that are up for auction and then make comments about their states, and if you take the time and search for them you will find many that are brutally honest.  I hope it will continue since it provides valuable feedback to those who visit the site because they are in the market for a Pagoda but don’t know much about them and wish to know what an original Pagoda looked like.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Benz Dr.

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2010, 03:31:32 »
I saw one sold today at the Toronto auction. '64 230SL, both tops, auto, white with blue interior. It said low miles but who can say for sure. It had a certain amount of detail but the paint wasn't that great with poor hood fit and a number of small chips along the front edge. It's what I'd call a partly restored car and it looked very presentable.
It sold for $45,000.00 which I believe is the highest price ever paid for a 113 at this event. It was also the only 113 there and the only old MB car for sale. There were other offerings but they were mostly from the '80's and newer.


If everyone is so caught up in what a correct cars is or should be, why haven't we put together a sheet that clearly states what's correct? I think most car clubs actually judge their cars at national events - they may disagree on the finer points but it gets done. Where are we on this, anyway?
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Jordan

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2010, 11:07:00 »
Dan, I too was at that auction yesterday but could not stay long enough to see the 230SL go.  Don't know if you looked under the car but it was leaking oil (pool under the engine) and the tail lights were incorrect.  But I agree it was a very presentable car, even had an automatic antenna.  That car was part of a JP Motors batch that were being sold and I checked their web site when I finally got home.  It was selling on thier lot for $43,900 so they did well on that one.  There was certainly a lot of interest in the car at the show.  Would you say the colour was correct?  I thought 050 was straight white, that one had a bit of a cream colour to it.  Mine is a 717 and I would have to say its looks whiter than that one.  I've never seen a 050 so I can't say.  Anyway, there were some beauitful cars at the show and some people got some really good deals.
Marcus
66 230SL  Euro 4 speed

Benz Dr.

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2010, 21:58:58 »
I didn't look under it. I took one look at the dude in the pink jacket who was trying to flog all of those cars and kind of walked away.
I did notice the late tail lights and the chromed vents on the dash were painted white. I remember someone around here saying they've seen this treatment before so it might be factory but I doubt it. I also noticed the paint colour. It wasn't 040 white nor was it 168 ( white grey? )  so I figured it was old paint, which it certainly was, so the appearance was yellowed a bit. Back some years ago the clears were very yellow compared to the stuff they use today. Maybe some of that yellowing can be blamed on materials.

There were a number of small paint chips all over the car so it had a lot of material on it. The fit wasn't bad but the front of the hood was too high. Oddly, it had 250SL headlight doors on it.
New carpet, new soft top, door sill trim, and bottom  trims around the outside of the doors. The engine bay was clean but not highly detailed. Someone painted the valve cover and intake manifold which looked OK.  The sun visors had been replaced with repro parts. The wood was original and a lot of the veneer was coming off. All the chrome was good but the bumpers were dull and they had the large over riders which made it look cluncky.

The hood prop rod was really bent and the hood wouldn't close properly. When I went to open the hood I realised right away what was wrong so I didn't try to close it without pulling the rod up. The seller practically knocked me over to stop me from closing the hood and it was just luck that kept me from having the prop rod slam down on my fingers. I indicated in no uncetain terms that I was VERY familiar with these cars. He said there was a trick to closing the hood to which I replied, '' Not if the prop rod is straight. I use a bit of grease to make it slide in the plastic block to prevent it from getting bent. I can't imagine why you didn't fix that. '' He walked away from me......

  I did notice the antenna and thought it was some sort of bogus crap but maybe that's what a really old power antenna looks like. Nothing I've ever seen before and I've seen lots of them.

Not familiar with this place selling the car but there are a ton of these operations around Toronto selling all sorts of cars. They often bring 10 - 15 cars at a time. You can tell which ones are the dealer cars because they tend to be locked up and some guy in a sports coat and slicked back hair will be watching them. I rarely, if ever, talk to any of them. Real owners will stand by their car and tell you anything they can about it. Often they don't sell them either....

If that's what 45K will get you then I should be getting 60+ for the ones that leave here. Both of the Detroit cars I have for sale ( in the for sale forum ) look every bit as good for 10 - 20 K less.
It was still a decent car though. The right colour made all the difference. White with blue is a strong combination.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

douglas dees

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2010, 23:15:22 »
Dan: I talked to the guy in the orange jacket and he knew little about those cars. The vin plate on the firewall was a repro and when I pointed it out he didn't want to talk to me. The best thing about the car was no evident rust. He would not show me the soft top. To me it was a $30,000 car at best. The wood needed work and the aerial is not even German. The rad core was damaged as well.
On top, the buyer has to pay a 10% premium plus the taxes pushing the price to $54,000.

Doug Dees ;)

Benz Dr.

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2010, 00:04:25 »
Yeah, he was an '' interesting'' guy alright.
 
I think you mean 54K with sales taxes added? The listed sale price was $49,500.00 on the web site. This would be the $45,000.00 the car sold for plus the 10% buyers premuim. It's all slight of hand though, the sale price is 45K and the buyers premiums are anothe matter. It makes everrything appear as though it sold for 10% more than the bid price which is an effort to get everyone thinking that 230SL's sell for 50K in Toronto.

It's kind of irritating when you have solid well sorted out cars for much less and no one seems interested. If I put a price of 50K on them ( which seems realistic according to what we just saw ) I would get limited response if any, or at least from this site...  ;)
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

cascadia

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2010, 04:12:06 »
I just returned from an auction in the midwest.  One thing I could add to this discussion is the phenomenon of "red mist", the foggy feeling one gets at a live auction.  When 2 bidders lock horns results like this can happen.  Sometimes the final cars of the auction realize high prices because no-one wants to go home empty handed.
Bob in Portland, Oregon.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2010, 00:41:54 »
This isn't like what you seed on TV. No one stands beside you so you have no idea who's bidding against you or if there even IS anyone except you bidding. Not a place I'd buy anything .................
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

gkaiser

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2010, 01:04:14 »
I think Benz Dr. has a great point.  We all have specialized knowledge about what a "correct" car is.  Is there any document that captures the collective wisdom and experience of this group?  Are there concours judges that have a cheat sheet?

hkollan

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2010, 16:42:31 »
Strong prices? I suspect that eBay auctions results with private bidder lists might not be the best source to determine if prices are going up or down.   "Overrestored 250 SL" is already back up for sale. The final "bid" of $59 900 was apparently not enough.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-MERCEDES-250SL-ONE-FAMILY-SINCE-NEW-BEST-OF-BEST_W0QQitemZ200461215851QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2eac6b686b#ht_34024wt_1070

Hans K, Cuenca, Spain
1968 280 SL 387 Blue met., parchment leather
1971 280 SL 462 Beige met, Brown leather
1968 280 SL 180 Silver, Red leather
1964 300 SE Lang 040 Black w/Red leather
1985 500 SL 735 Astral Silver w/Black leather
1987 560 SEC 199 Black met., Black leather

dtuttle123

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2010, 20:06:02 »
"Overrestored 250 SL" is already back up for sale. The final "bid" of $59 900 was apparently not enough.

..or the buyer defaulted, and now the seller has to try again!

bogeyman

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2010, 22:23:40 »
The guy selling this car is no amateur.
Sometimes the bids are not what they seem.
Sometimes the car does not match the descriptions.
Caveat emptor.
Rick Bogart
1970 280SL Black(040)/Parchment
1969 280SL Silver(180)/Green
1993 500E
1972 350SL
1995 E320 Cabrio

hkollan

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2010, 23:04:33 »
You could be right Doug, but if I was a serious seller I would include an explanation why the car is back up for sale just a few days after it apparently made the reserve and was sold to the high bidder.
Private listings always make me skeptical and especially with this kind of bidding.
Damn nice looking car though, I just love that color combination.
Hans K, Cuenca, Spain
1968 280 SL 387 Blue met., parchment leather
1971 280 SL 462 Beige met, Brown leather
1968 280 SL 180 Silver, Red leather
1964 300 SE Lang 040 Black w/Red leather
1985 500 SL 735 Astral Silver w/Black leather
1987 560 SEC 199 Black met., Black leather

ctm14

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2010, 04:15:11 »
I spoke with the owner of the green 250 and $59,900 was his reserve.  A little suspicious that it jumped to that price 24 hours before the auction ended.  Just a total assumption but could someone have been doing a bit of chandelier bidding to see if they could drive the price where they wanted it?  ???

Ulf

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2010, 08:49:39 »
I occasionally skim the classifieds here in Denmark to keep an eye on values - it's a small market with currently only 10-11 cars for sale, but it seems like prices have gone up a little in the past months (springtime?) with nice Euro-spec cars averaging about 35k euro/45k USD and dry state US-imports (mostly 280's) scoring only slightly lower. But as always there is a huge difference between what dealers are asking for their cars compared to private sales - the latter are often priced quite a bit lower. But the suspicious cars in the 25k USD price range have all but disappeared...
The most expensive car at the moment is a seemingly mint condition 69' 280 SL that was restored in 2004 coming in at almost 70k USD.
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
1982 Land Rover Series III SWB
2008 Jaguar XF 3.0
2005 Mini Cooper

johnshenry

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2010, 18:31:24 »
Interesting topic, I just bought a '69 280 last Fall for what I thought was a very good price considering what I know now (and am learning more every day) the actual condition of the car is.  I can say that the more I read on this topic, the better I feel about mine...!

But I did want to offer some perspective from the vintage VW hobby that I have been immersed in for 30 years this year.  I am presently trying to sell one of the 3 vintage VWs I own, a 1950 Sunroof.

What I have observed through this economic downturn, is that, to a large degree, people who had money to invest in good cars before '08, still have money.   Conservative and financially prudent folks have weathered the storm OK and perhaps even moreso than ever, are poised to buy a nice vintage car as an investment to enjoy.  But their numbers are small, and this means that only the best cars are selling well, while the sub-par beaters and hacks aren't moving at all.  You see the same in the housing market when it starts to rebound.  The best homes sell quickly, while the others flounder.

And within those high end, best of class cars, there are two buckets: Museum Pieces and drivers.  In the VW world, some ultra resto split window Beetles ('53 qnd earlier) have sold in the $50-$70k range in recent years, but they are likely never going to be driven (unfortunately).  The better examples of drivers are still selling pretty high, but anything with a lot of incorrect parts, hack work, or poor restos are not selling at all.

Keep in mind BTW, that in the vintage VW hobby, the value of cars goes up exponentially with age.  Value of like condition VWs 1950 vs 1970 are orders of magnitude.

Lastly I'll mention that those mega televised auction debacles (like BJ) are in no way representative of the actual, educated buyer market.  They are for people with more money than brains.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 17:55:03 by johnshenry »

IXLR8

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2010, 00:54:45 »


I would say NO, if the attached eBay listing means anything.

Basically a basket case with a non-standard engine presently being bid at $12,400??!!



 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160427590056&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


Wow!


Joe

Troup

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2010, 20:04:20 »
 ???  I am new to this site and trying to price my 67 250 SL that I have owned since '84. It has been a driver, but as I age, I tend to drive something else.

I started looking at prices at the first of the year and am confused now as ever. I started off thinking 24 to 27 K and now think somewhere in the mid 30's would be closer to its value. It certainly isn't perfect as it isn't new, but it isn't in bad shape at all. It is solid black, 100k miles and has both the soft top and the hard top.

Anyone in my area that would like to take a look, let me know. I'm not going to sell on EBay or to anyone that doesn't have a real interest in the design and make. If I learn how to post a picture, I'll join and advertize here.

Dahlknudsen

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2010, 22:39:56 »
I occasionally skim the classifieds here in Denmark to keep an eye on values - it's a small market with currently only 10-11 cars for sale, but it seems like prices have gone up a little in the past months (springtime?) with nice Euro-spec cars averaging about 35k euro/45k USD and dry state US-imports (mostly 280's) scoring only slightly lower. But as always there is a huge difference between what dealers are asking for their cars compared to private sales - the latter are often priced quite a bit lower. But the suspicious cars in the 25k USD price range have all but disappeared...
The most expensive car at the moment is a seemingly mint condition 69' 280 SL that was restored in 2004 coming in at almost 70k USD.

Yes Ulf the dealer Responcecars has raised his prices, but he still has had the same cars for sale for 2 years now. I am glad he raised his price since I lowered mine in the same periode, but mine is still not sold and mine is about the same state as his only mine is 15K$ cheaper.

Those buyers that contacted me want a perfect car at a bargain price... they are treasure hunters. And then the those who want only the best and will pay for it. None is willing to work a litle theme selves to make it a perfect car.

But some day the right man will appear...

Ulf

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2010, 07:35:14 »
Just out of curiosity - why are you selling? Have noticed your car from time to time and it's really stunning? I wish I had seen your car before buying my own 2,5 years ago...
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
1982 Land Rover Series III SWB
2008 Jaguar XF 3.0
2005 Mini Cooper

Dahlknudsen

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2010, 10:25:50 »
PM sent to Ulf.

I love the car, but its not at family car and I might need a 2.nd car should I find a new job not in cycling distance from home.

But I am quite sure I want one again, when the kids are out of the house.... in 20 years or so!!!!

jaymanek

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2010, 08:54:10 »
I would definately have bought your car if the transportation wasnt such an issue. I thought it was just a case of flying over and driving back on a ferry.. How wrong was I..

Im sure someone will come along soon as the car looks absolutely fantastic.

Dahlknudsen

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2010, 11:53:12 »
I would definately have bought your car if the transportation wasnt such an issue. I thought it was just a case of flying over and driving back on a ferry.. How wrong was I..

Im sure someone will come along soon as the car looks absolutely fantastic.

I hope so. You have been the most serious buyer yet, and I am even more sorry because I see how well you take care of your new car and I am sure mine would have loved beeing in your care. Just not many of your kind around these days...

Jakob

Ulf

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Re: Has the value of our cars tanked???
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2010, 10:17:34 »
Why wasn't it a case of flying over and taking the ferry home? Isn't there still a connection between Esbjerg and Harwich?

Ulf
1965 230 SL in silver (DB180)
1982 Land Rover Series III SWB
2008 Jaguar XF 3.0
2005 Mini Cooper