Am I over my head? Crazy? or thinking clearly???

[estate320]

I watched my father tinker with Jags my whole life. A road trip always involved a brief road side "tour" and a gathering of local repair shops and junk yards. This seems normal to my brother and I until we grew up and learned others traveled in minivans directly to and from their destinations. In hind site I never had any regrets with any of this and actually have fond memories. So forward ahead a few years and I have kids of my own. I have one jaguar now that keeps me on my toes.

So here is how this happened. I talk to one guy find out he has a "69 280SL under a barn lean to. It had a engine rebuilt and swap out auto transmission 20 years ago. It was started every now and then for awhile. It was totally under cover until the past 5 years which now it is on dirt. Huge chunks of the paint are flaking off the alum. bits and the rear wing has the huge rust spot. No major body issues, chrome is good as is glass. The interior was also redone but has looked better. The climate control levers are gone, radio swapped out for some radio shack special, and I think a 3rd seat may be in the rear.

I could not get under the car or look under the mats to search for rust damage. I have to assume its there waiting to be discovered. The trunk looked OK, tool kit spare tire cover and original rim. The car had been repainted from Moss Green to Signal Red. Now my big question is what is the car worth and more importantly what am I about to get into just to get the car rolling under its own power? Not sure how these cars handle being put up and forgot. The owner I think is still under the impression its worth more than it is.

Can anyone help me figure what it may be worth just as a parts car or as a running driver? Also what will I be spending to get it to that point. Thanks for you help.

[abe280SL]

EXPENSIVE....do yourself a favor..buy the best rust free car out there.  Buy one that someone else has taking the $$$$ hit or else your project will cost much more than you think and when you look at the internet you will find that your car is listed for half of what you put into it.  Its a good buyers market...take advantage of it.
abe

[estate320]

Thanks for the reply. Does this logic apply if I can get the car for a few thousand dollars? I sort of assumed the price of parts on the car would be worth atleast that much. Heck it seems the grill alone is worth 2K. This is just mine line of thinking plus restoring it myself would give me the pride of my work. These maybe my last words.

Either way the advice is taken and considered. Anyone else want to chime in?

[Garry]

Hi Estate 320

A lot of the joy in owning this type of car is spending the time in doing a restoration.  Sure, you can just spend lots of money and buy a restored one that you then can admire and drive, or you can throw lots of money at a restorer and end up at the same place provided you get the initial car at the right price.  
However, there is only the one way to get the enormous pleasure and sense of achievement in knowing that you have done it your self even if that means subcontracting out parts of the restoration to others and not just spending a bucket of money for an already restored car.  You also get to learn the in's and out's of the W113 that you have, know its good and potentially weak points that cannot be gained from other than experience in working on it.

If you just want to make money and not that interested in the actual vehicle then don't bother doing it. Just buy a restored one at the right price and put it away to appreciate in value.

[J. Huber]

Hey Estate. I think the dearth of responses so far is mainly because its so difficult to put a value on a "barn find" without concrete details or at least pictures. Abe's advice is obviously one approach -- and he is correct that because its a buyer's market, you may find a nice car for less than if the economy was stronger. And these cars can be very expensive to bring back up if they get too dilapidated. Having said that, bottom fishing is always an option as well. Depending on what your end game is -- finding a salvageable car for cheap could be very exciting. The nice thing is with all the experience here, we can get you pretty accurate numbers on what specifics costs what. First I'd find out what kind of numbers the owner is thinking -- then I'd look very close and make a check list of things. And take pictures and post them here.

[mdsalemi]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: rust is just another issue to deal with, and there is no more reason to avoid it anymore than there is to avoid mechanical issues.  That's not to say seek it out by any means, but almost all rust issues can be dealt with.  The skills, and tools and means to deal with them are different, but doable.  Most of us feel comfortable, and some even confident, with wrenches in our hands; less so with plasma cutters and TIG welders.  But repairable rust it isn't any reason to avoid an otherwise mechanically sound car.

I had a lot of metal work done on my car due to the PO's (which happened to be my Uncle) lack of care, but I also had a lot of mechanical work done too.  I can't say one was any worse or expensive than another.  They both took time and money, and specific skill sets to accomplish.

It costs nearly $10,000 to remove, rebuild, and replace a motor today.  It's over $1,000 for a FI pump.  Changing all the brake lines, and rebuilding all the calipers and getting it all back together isn't chump change either.  Anyone have a transmission rebuild lately?  Last I checked that was 8 hours labor just for removal and reinstall (by a pro) and well over a thousand $$ for a rebuild.  Anyime you tackle a reasonably major mechanical issue on any average car of this vintage you are bound to find quite a few other things that need to be done before you can safely put it all back together again.  So, if you see a relatively rust free car that is smoking out the exhaust, and has a fuel injection issue too, don't assume it is automatically better or less costly to deal with than a nice running car that needs a new trunk floor and wheel well arches.

There is always this elusive quest for a "rust free" original car where the mechanical items are what needs work and the body perfect.  Keep looking.  I hardly think these exist, but maybe somewhere they do--someone who never changed the oil, never maintained the brakes, etc. but religiously washed the car and garaged it all the time, and one that never saw winters.

I've seen a lot of body work with new sheet metal done on W113's, not only on my car but on others.  It's nearly all doable.  Thanks to great folks like Tim Kidder at K&K, most metal is available.

Bottom line is to really know and understand what you are getting into--and how the problems are dealt with.  Rust  is one issue, so are mechanical items.

Now if the car is not sound mechanically as well as full of rust, that's a whole 'nother issue...

[Douglas]

Here's a related question to the rust repair issue: are replacement panels from K&K the same gauge steel as the original factory body panels?

[mdsalemi]

Here's a related question to the rust repair issue: are replacement panels from K&K the same gauge steel as the original factory body panels?

Douglas,

NO, they are not the same gauge steel as the original factory body panels.  In many cases I understand, they are better--because the gauge is thicker and generally they use galvalume.  Tim buys end of rolls from large stamping operations when he can get it.  His standards are pretty high.  Today's body steel is generally better than that of the 1960's.

Tim gave a presentation on it at PUB 2007.

Dan,

Sometimes people say I'm cranky, too.

[seattle_Jerry]

I agree with a lot of the above points....for me the pleasure is in the restoring, saving a piece of art from the junkyard. It will be a long slow road for me as I can only afford to do a little each month, but for me the journey is where it is at. Once I get this one done, I'll be looking for something else to travel with.

I guess you have to ask yourself if you are the type of person that enjoys the journey or the end result more. Sure it will likely cost more to do it all yourself, but how are you looking at that money? I look at my SL as entertainment/continuing education. So while it is costing me money, my life is being enriched by the experience of working on it.

[IXLR8]

My experience is that almost whatever the condition of the car--fully "restored", outstanding original condition, or barn find, there are always things that must be done.  At a minimum, on a car that is 40 years old, the rubber bits will need or soon need redoing. Some chrome will not be perfect.  Transmission and or throttle linkage will not be perfect.

I prefer a classic car that needs some work so that I know what needs to be done and I know that I did the job right.

For my transportation needs, I'll stick with my new Ford truck.

Just sayin'


Joe

[waltklatt]

Estate 320.
I would be careful here.
Many would say run, others would say take the car and throw money at it.
I would first see what you are capable of and do some research on the cost of the parts, do a tally of the items that are in need for the 'barn-find'.
I've taken a few barn finds myself and fixed them up to near new condition, but it's a time consuming task.
Heck the 220SL diesel of mine is now a 11 year affair with the conversion and tinkering to make it a comfortable driver.
And today it's still not finished, but it's a driver.
SO to sum it up, do your homework first before taking the plunge.
Jaguars and Mercedes are two different breeds with different logic.
I thought I could rebuild a Honda, but the logic stupefied me and couldn't get it going, so I gave it up.
But maybe you've got better luck than me.
Walter
1967 220SL-diesel

[Shvegel]

Speaking as someone who is about 2/3 of the way through a $20,000USD and three year(and counting)body job if you are not emotionally attached to a specific W113 you are probably better off buying a solid one.  I loved my car and had rebuilt the mechanicals so I took the plunge but there are days I wish I hadn't.

Some numbers:
Recovering seats in leather with new pads $2,000
Fenders, Quarterpanels, Rocker Assys, Front inner structure Rear panel and Misc body parts $9,000
New Euro Headlights $1,000
New weatherstrips for repaint(Windshield, doors, trunk etc)  $500
If you feel comfortable with doing your own work fine but if you are going to farm it out it will ever make economic sense to buy one that needs work.

[ctaylor738]

Rehabs and basket cases are sort of my specialty.  I've saved a 250C, 280SE, 450SL, 350SL, and my current 230SL from either the crusher or the recycler and enjoyed most of it. 

So to answer your question, I would first see if the engine is stuck by trying to turn it over with a 27 mm socket and a breaker bar on the balancer.  If you're incredibly fortunate you might be able to put a battery in it and use the starter.   If it's stuck, I would pass.

If you get through that gate, on this car, you are looking at having the tank boiled and coated.  If it's really bad, you may need to replace it.  You will almost certainly need a fuel pump and the connecting rubber hoses and filters.  The injection pump is a major gamble, but they are not hard to find used.  You should budget for a new starter and alternator and water pump.  You will need to remove and flush out all of the fuel lines and injection plumbing and change the oil and filter. Throw in some spark and you should have a running engine.   If you can do this work yourself (it's not rocket science) and are willing to chase down used parts, you should be able to get to this point for $1,000 with the injection pump being the big question mark.

Then you need to hope that the transmission works and sort out the brakes, which  at a minimum will mean hoses, possiibly calipers and a master cylinder.  This could be another $1,000.

So assuming that you pay around $4,00 for the car, you coulld have a running Pagoda for around 6 grand.  Then you can assess the condition and decide what you want to do next. 

It's sort of a science experiment and you really don't know how it will all turn out, but for me that's been a major attraction.

Forget about it if you have to pay a shop to do the work.

[Benz Dr.]

I love it when it all gets simplified.  Throw the engine in, slap on some brakes, stuff a new trans in it and you're off to the races. Some easy a mechanic could do it........... ( hehehehe )