Getrag 265 - 5 Speed Conversion

[450sl]

Ok Petri PM sent.

[star63]

Have you really been able to fit the Getrag in place, aligned with the propshaft and clearing the tunnel walls?
Mine is now leaning against the left side of the tunnel (where the handbrake is) 

The engine mounts are  almost new as well as the subframe mounts. I tried to adjust the subframe in order to turn the engine/tranny assembly away from the wall. No luck.

Any suggestions?

[star63]

Ok Petri PM sent.

Thanks, Mark!

[star63]

Problem solved!!! I think...

I moved the aluminum mounting bracket on the right side of the engine block about 3 mm backward (had to enlarge the bolt holes). This changed the engine (and gearbox) alignment. Now the gap between the gearbox and the transmission tunnel wall is about 6 mm.

I will have to move the gearbox rubber mounts in the cradle a few millimeters because they are now pulling towards the hand brake...

[stickandrudderman]

I think you'll find that by doing that you will have created a whole raft of problems, not least of which is moving your c of g forward thus affecting your weight distribution. I would expect the steering to be heavier and the car will have a tendency to under steer or "push" as you westerners like to call it. Possibly more oversteer too! It's not something I would choose to mess around with on a pagoda.
Actually, having just re-read your post, you only butchered ONE engine mounting bracket? So now your thrust line is canted too? Your prop shaft coupling is not going to like that!

[GGR]

the transmission output flange and the rear axle input flange need to rotate in parallel plans, or you will have vibrations.

[star63]

The alignment of the thrust line is quite easy to check. Install the flex disc to the gearbox flange. Then connect the propshaft flange with the flex disc but leave the bolts loose. Turn the propshaft by hand and watch the gap between the flange and the disc. The gap should not fluctuate.

[PeterPortugal]

Hi Colin,
What further developments are you working on? I have an overhauled box and the kit but haven't got round to having it fitted yet so if there are some new options to improve it I would like to know about them.
Regards
Peter

[stickandrudderman]

I have done 5 conversions so far and none have been the same.
I have a custom electronic speedo drive because the gears to drive the speedo cable are no longer available. This started life as a box I bought from the USA but it turned out to be unreliable, as was their customer service so I had an electronics engineer rip out the electronics and start again. The result is a much better product that comes pre-calibrated according to the vehicle's tyres and diff ratio. We are working on a MKII version that will eliminate the speedo cable entirely.
Until the last one I have not had to modify the transmission tunnel.
I have had a drawing done of the propshaft mods and so I can simply send a prop to my preferred company and refer them to that.
I have researched and selected several different propshaft couplings because I've had a couple of premature failures.
All in all I would say that this retro-fit should be undertaken by experienced engineers who can ensure that each fit works with each car.
For this reason I will not be offering my mods as an over-the-counter kit.
My electronics engineer may consider offering the speedo drive to market but there is no time scale.

[gordon]

Did you find when doing your Getrag conversions that the box fouled the tunnel adjacent to the hand brake  as experienced by Star 63 in earlier recent posts?

I ask because I am about to convert my 230 to 5 speed

[stickandrudderman]

Of the 5 I have done only the last one needed to have some modification around the handbrake area. This despite the fact that I cut and grind the redundant lugs from the back of the box.
It's also noteworthy that the BMW rubber mountings are getting increasingly difficult to find and I may have to try straight bobbin type mountings on the next one which will mean a cradle re-design.

[gordon]

Thank you Colin.   I think some careful bashing is called for

My box is from a Monza with a central mount close to the speedo take off  which I am intending to use instead of the 2 side lugs or do you think this will impose too much load on the tail of the box?

[stickandrudderman]

If it was good enough for the Monza then one must presume that it will be good enough for a Pagoda!

[star63]

I've been driving my Getrag conversion now for about a week.

Very happy!   

(3,92 diff.)

[Peter h]

2 years.....
Peter

[Jimbo1907]

I have not been on this forum for a while. I purchased the kit to install the Getrag 265 in my 1969 280SL. The transmission is in and seems to shift well. The shop that has done most of the work elected to make up a shift linkage yoke machined to fit the application.

Several years ago I had a 4.5 sedan rear axle set installed in my car in an attempt to correct the high revs at highway speeds. Fortunately the old axle was still around (I think these are about 3.93:1?) and I was able to find it and bring it to them to put into my car. They are currently going through the original axle- boot clamps, bearings, pinion seal, etc- before putting it back in the car. I was not able to find a 265 dog box with the 1:1 fifth gear, so we had to use one with the OD fifth, which is just as well- the 4.5 rear axle is a bit noisy and I think it needs going through before it goes into another car.

They hope to have the car done in the next month. (this has been a "work on it when time available" project, but with spring almost here, I would like to be driving the car.

We have not dealt with the speedometer issue yet. What have other folks in the USA done? I would like to have the cable drive speedometer that is original to the car remain in it. Can a cable be made up to drive the VDO speedo and can I have a speedometer shop adjust the VDO speedometer to read accurately with the Getrag 265 transmission?

[GGR]

You may have your speedometer re-calibrated but your odometer will still read the wrong distance. The best is to fit a gear ratio adapter like one of these.

You can use a BMW cable for the part between the trans and the adapter, and a Mercedes cable between the speedo and the adapter. There are companies that modify the cables to fit your application.  You want the adapter in the engine bay and not under the dash as it is a bit noisy and you will hear it if inside the car.

[Jimbo1907]

Thank you. Do you know of a manufacturer for this item? I gather it corrects the ratio as well as giving the cables something to plug into.

[Jimbo1907]

Progress, of a sort. The original rear axle is going back together (slowly), and there is now a lift installed in the shop, which will make doing the rear axle changeover a great deal easier. Plan is to take out the present axle, the 3.27 unit, and move the rear brakes and some other bits and pieces over to the new/old axle, the 3.92 unit. At that point, paint that unit and put it in the car. I am still trying to figure out how to drive the speedometer. If anyone has a source for the item that GGR posted a photo of, that would be very helpful.

It's ironic to me that one of the contemporaries of the 113 car, the Jaguar E-type, was also a lovely car somewhat undone by its transmission. (the original E-type had a non-synchro first gear, in a transmission described in the day as 'agricultural"- sturdy and crude) Jaguar upped their game in 1965 with a full-synchro box which is still very good by modern standards. And, like we are doing with 113 cars, one of the most popular conversions done while restoring E-types is a conversion to a five-speed transmission. The most popular one seems to be a Borg-Warner T5, and there is a whole kit to put one in E-types.

Bud's Benz has also had a kit for a five-speed installation into a 113 car. The photos I saw looked good, but it keeps the original ratios, plus an OD, which is not what I wanted to do. I wanted to get away from the stump-pulling first gear of the MB manual gearbox, and have closely-spaced ratios which would finish up in an OD fifth. I hope we will be there once this is all done.

[GGR]

You should contact member Pagoden. He gave me the address of a supplier who will also build the cable. I lost the address but Pagoden will surely be able to help you.

[Jimbo1907]

Thank you. I will email him through this forum.

[Shvegel]

Does anyone have the length of the 2 rods that support the shifter?  I need to fabricate something for the rods.  If anyone has the driveshaft length for the front section using the BMW front flange and r=the Mercedes rear flange?   Thanks in advance.

[Jimbo1907]

More progress. The axle, trans and propeller shaft are all in. We had some difficulty with the emergency brake- the cable is NLA as a new part, we found one NOS stock one on eBay and were able to reuse one of the other ones. The technician doing the job was able to adapt the NOS cable which may not have been the exact right one but was usable.

With luck, the car will be road tested this week. (I may not be in town for it, but I'm sure I will hear about it) Full report to follow. I know I keep saying that, but it IS nearing completion.

We have not dealt with the speedometer drive situation yet. Can someone explain to me why if we connect the speedo to the transmission using a cable which has one VDO end and one Getrag end, the speedometer could be accurate whilst the odometer would not be? Seems to me they are both driven by the same cable. But what do I know..

[GGR]

The odometer is driven by gears so there is a direct relation between the number of turns of the cable and what the odometer is showing. The speedo is driven magnetically by a wheel also connected to the cable. The faster the wheel turns, the higher the speed indicated on the dial. I guess calibration is made by modifying the distance between elements of this magnetic relation. So you can recalibrate the speedo to show the right speed, but your odometer will be off. 

[guyke]

i am reading about al these conversions to 5 speed getrag , wy not convert to a 6 speed getrag , they are much easier to find or is it not possible due to size