Author Topic: Another PUB Success Story  (Read 8437 times)

Tonys113

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Another PUB Success Story
« on: August 03, 2009, 18:52:37 »
For those of you who were there and especially those who were not I must tell you all the story of what started as a simple linkage adjustment.
We (My Wife and I) drove our 69 280SL to Columbus from Rochester NY to attend the PUB at Joe Alexanders. Knowing full well that my car was in desperate need to some good advise that I could not find here in my home town.
My car has been running poorly ever since it first became mine bask in November 2008. I have struggled along trying to get it running consistantly to no avail. I have adjusted and re-adjusted the linkage, the injection pump, the idle air screw, the timing, the plugs but could never get a real handle on it. It ran rich, in ran lean, it had a bad case of hesitation and a pretty good back-fire condition.

On Saturday of the PUB Joe produced the infamous 10mm stud to start me off on the correct linkage adjustment as the only way I could get m y car to run was to have the IP down rod 250 mm long. Of course I knew that once this was complete the car wouldn't run. I was also convinced that the IP adjustment screw was either frozen or broken as it did not turn.
Joe reached down for the adjustment screw and immediately determined that it was backed out all the way (LEAN) and the internal screw was stuck up against the external screw. He not only found the cog to begin adjusting it again back toward rich. Of course now the car idled again, much better that before. Upon a test drive however there was still something wrong, as strong back fire between 1st and 2nd gear and the hesitation problem was a prevalent as ever. Joe suggested I come back on Monday morning for a bit more detailed look at what might be going on.

Monday's drive to Joe's from the hotel was a challenge as the car was not happy with the adjustment.
Once at Joe's we removed the valve cover and check them Cam and Crank Shaft timing. With the Crank shaft at 0 degrees on the balancer the notch on the cam should have been in line with the casting mark on the Cam tower. No way, not even close. Did the Chain jump a link or two, was it installed that way, why would the valves be so retarded from the crank shaft.
Well in all actuality they were not as far off as we had first determined. Yes there are (2) sets of timing marks on my Harmonic Balancer. An outer ring set of marks for Early Cars and an Inner Set for Late Cars. Mine is a Late Car and each set of timing marks has a distinctly different Pointer attached to the front of the block. We of course in our haste, lack of sleep and lack of time were in fact reading the wrong scale. Not that that lead us to far from our intended goal or off in some wrong direction but our best efforts in slipping the cam gear off the cam, advancing it, re-installing gave us better results but still was not running as it should.
I left Columbus for the 7 hour ride home with a car that ran only slightly better that when I arrived but I had gain some invaluable experience not only from Joe Alexander but from many in attendance who had offered advise as well as hands on help. We did get home OK, but along the way the car started to skip or misfire almost like the ignition was turning off for a split second.
Upon arrival at home I started again where we had left off in Columbus, I removed the linkage, valve cover and spark plugs, hooked up a remote starter and spun the motor over several time to get the balancer at 0, making sure the piston was at the top through the spark plug hole. The Cam was Retarded. I turn the motor over by hand until the notch on the cam was in line with the casting mark and read the balance scale to determine exactly how off it was, 10 Degrees Retarded. From what I learned at the PUB, each link in the timing chain is equal to 18 degrees of rotation so I slipped the chain off the cam, and advance it one tooth, but now it was going to be 8 degrees advanced. I purchased an OFF-SET KEY for the camshaft and installed it make up the difference. Once all assembled again, I turned the motor over several time to ensure that all of the marks lined up and they most definitely did.
Additionally when ordering the cam keys I ordered a new electronic ignition system. I had previously replaced the points with a Crane FIRE-BALL ignition system right after I received the car but have heard several stories of them failing by some other participants and having noticed the skip in firing on the way home, I decided it could not hurt and would be one less thing to have to eliminate.
This Sunday I finished putting everything back together. As I was removing the old coil, I happened to turn it upside down and fluid was dripping from it. It definitely had some issues. I have not yet measured the resistance of it but once the new ignition was installed and the timing was set to 30 Degrees advance at 3000RPM my car runs better that it ever has I am sure in quite some time, ever long before I owned it.
The hesitation issue is gone, it excellerates smoothly through the gears, there is no longer a skip of fault at high rpm's. there is still a slight hint of a back fire upon deceleration which I am sure a little more tuning will eliminate but OMG what a difference.

I really loved this car from the first time I laid eyes on it but have been pretty disappointed in its performance or lack there of and my inability to get to the bottom of it. If you have a good honest mechanic in your area, make a point to pay him a compliment, if you don't don't be afraid to ask anyone who is member of this group for help. Everyone has something to contribute and some really do know just about Everything there is know about these cars, or certainly know where to look.

Thank you especially to Joe Alexander for his help and guidance and to everyone who helped even in the smallest way.

Today it is sunny and 80 degrees here in western New York, the car is outside my office window, the top is down and I can't wait to get the H&$LL out here and take her for a ride.

Tony

ja17

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2009, 22:30:57 »
Congratulations Tony!  I cannot take much of the credit. Neither one of us were happy with how the car was running when it left. We just ran out of time. However, by the time you left you gained enough knowledge, confidence and experience to finish the repairs yourself! This is what the group, and PUB is all about.

At last your Pagoda runs as well as it looks!

Happy Motoring!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Benz Dr.

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2009, 04:48:19 »
Tony,
it's good your repairs worked out. I'm sure most of your problems were sorted out by fixing the igintion system.
Usually, when I see that much wear when I'm checking cam timing, I replace the chain with a new one. I'm sure yours will be worn out as well as the crank gear. The chain is fairly easy to replace - the crank gear should be replaced during a rebuild.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

glenn

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2009, 12:50:22 »
Synchronized--!!!   PPP  Pagoda Purring Perfectly    Amazing when the crank, cam, valves, distributor, FIP, etc are all timed right------  The engine sounds different, heh?   Balance a nickle on the valve cover.     Is the FIP in sync -after jumping chain and offset key?   FIP timing isn't absolutely critical, but helps.

JimVillers

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2009, 13:02:30 »
Tony .... Good job.  I suspect that your primary problem was your Crane Cam unit.  They are hard to install correctly and your back firing in second gear indicates that yours was not correctly positioned inside the distributor.  As the advance moves the timing, the spark will jump to the incorrect terminal in the distributor cap.  It also sounds like the ballast resistor was either missing or bypassed. 

The point to remember is that you cannot begin adjusting the fuel until the ignition is CORRECT.  It is easy to overlook some basics. 

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

Tonys113

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2009, 16:07:18 »
Thanks Jim, I am sure you are correct. The Crane unit instructions indicated to BY-PASS the Ballast Resistor which I did. The New Petronix unit says it will work either with a Resistor or Without. I opted for With.

Glenn, I am not 100% convinced that the IP is correct, There is still just the slightest bit of hesitation and some bit of LOPE to the idle, ever so slight. Joe Alexander says he has a way to check the timing of the IP without removing it. He has not shared that with me yet, only as a last resort. It's raining here today so the car is safely in my garage, I suspect that tonight or tomorrow I will be driving again and will perform the split linkage test again to see if it thinks it is need of air or fuel.

Tony

Tonys113

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Re: Another PUB Success Story (Update)
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2009, 18:56:20 »
Over the last several days, dodging heavy rains here in western NY I have finally made some real progress in tuning my 280. I thought it pertinent if not entertaining for you all to share that experience.

Once the ignition problems and the timing issues were behind me I still was experiencing a very rich condition everywhere through the power band. With only a single very thin shim under the WRD I convinced myself it was time to make some internal changes to the IP. First I removed the 5mm screw from the back of the pump to have a go at the rack adjustment screw. 2 clicks toward lean wasn't enough. Still had some hesitation and occasional backfire, still rich at idle and the idle adjustment screw on the back of the IP was stopped all the way lean.
2 more clicks to lean on the rack screw and immediately the idle was back but had a definite LEAN Surge above 3500 rpm. I clicked the rack screw one click back to rich and the surge at highway speeds was gone, idle was much improved to allow several clicks of the idle adjustment screw back toward rich. Idles nicely at 800rpm, runs wonderful at cruising speed but still has some issues in the mid-range (1800-2900rpms)

Being rather bold and daring yesterday I exposed the mid-range adjusting screws inside the IP (The Black Ones) and gave them a go. 3 clicks toward lean and OMG. Hesitation is almost un-noticeable, Back fire between shift if GONE.

I did put new spark plugs (WR9DC+) in after the last adjustments and just took 2 out to have a look and you can hardly tell I drove 70 miles today. I am not sure why these adjustments were so far off as I am not getting much cooperation from the previous owners mechanic, I can't imagine that they could have been very happy with the way this car ran or if the point of sale didn't really care. I am very happy to say that todays miles were the most relaxing and enjoyable I have had to date. We are in for a nice stretch of weather over the next couple weeks so I won't be so self conscience stinking up everywhere I drive with the smell of un-burnt fuel spewing from my tail-pipe.

Tony

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 19:44:52 »
Great Result!!!

Thanks for the update.

naj
68 280SL

Benz Dr.

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2009, 02:21:42 »
We usually prefer non resistor plugs in these cars so it should be intertesting to see if the ones you have will cotinue to work as they do right now. You have the right heat range but you also have extra resistors in the system.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Tonys113

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2009, 11:56:53 »
Thanks Dan,

I was made aware of that when researching 'Spark Plugs' here on the site and am looking now for an alternative.

Tony

jacovdw

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2009, 13:09:37 »
Tony,

A suitable alternative to Bosch plugs would be NGK.
The equivalent for Bosch W9DCo would be NGK BP5ES.

Tonys113

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2009, 17:52:58 »
Thank You Jaco,
I did order those very spark plugs this morning and should have them tomorrow.
Can't wait to try them.

Tony

waqas

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Re: Another PUB Success Story
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2009, 02:43:20 »
Tony, make sure you're not using too hot a plug. If your compression is normal, then you should consider using the normal range plug.
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas