W113 300 SL ??

[Cees Klumper]

Check out this creation:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2460365592&category=9855

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[ja17]

Hello,
 Oh what a shame! It has the parts from both but none of good lines and none of the continuity of desin of either! Oh well, it could be a good parts car for a 300-SL or W113 SL!


Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[n/a]

That's sacreligious !!! Someone has a serious drug problem and way too much time on their hand.

[kns]

Just goes to show that money and taste don't always travel together. If any of our German speaking friends is minded to translate, I would love to know if the article contains the vendor's excuse, or motivation.

Cheers,

kns.
1965 230SL, Manual
[1965 220SEb Coupe, Man.]

[Cees Klumper]

I will try my best to translate:

"Der Umbau wurde 1980 ausgeführt. Es gibt ein Gutachten vom 24.12.1996 über DM 80.000.--"

This conversion was done in 1980. There is an appraisal dated december 24, 1996, for over DM 80,000 (something like $45,000 today if you can believe it)

"Die Karosserie ist größtenteils aus GFK geformt. Technik und Bodengruppe sind gesund."

The body has been made mostly from GFK (I assume this is polyester or something similar). Mechanicals and chassis are sound.

"Der Wagen hat Lackschäden welche von einen Liebhaber leicht zu beheben sind."

There is some paint damage that can be easily repaired by a hobbyist (...)

Es ist ein Einzelstück von der FA. Scheib Mannheim aufgebaut.Der Motor hat ca 40.000 Kilometer, der Wagen ist aus 3 Hand mit schönheitsfehler.

This is a one-of-a-kind, by the Scheib company in Mannheim. The engine has done about 40,000 km. There are three previous owners and there are some cosmetic defaults (...)

"Innenausstattung ist Schwarz Leder mit Schallensitze. Org. Sitze sind vorhanden.Die Farbe ist Silber Met. Daß Verteck ist in einen sehr guten Zustand, Die Bremsanlage ist vor ca 2000 km erneuert worden, Reifen zu 80% neu."

The interior is done in black leather, with racing seats. The original seats come with the car. Color is silver metallic. The soft top is in excellent condition. The brakes have been rebuilt some 2000 km back. The tires have 80% of their thread remaining.

"Ich weiße darauf hin das der Wagen 40 Jahre auf dem Buckel hat und aus diesen Grund immer eine Pflege braucht. Spassbieter werden zur Verantwortung gezogen. Gutachten kann eingesehen werden."

Let me point out that this is a 40-year old car so it is in need of some TLC. Frivolous bidders beware. Appraisal available for consultation.

Don't try this at home!!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Gerhard]

How sad :evil:  that some people do not respect a quality car.
IMHO these people just screwed up the image of 2 beautiful cars.
They could have at least used a 107 chassis instead of the 113. Better yet build a scale model.

If you can't afford the original go for something like LADA  but don't mess with MB's topmodels.




Gerhard Radstake
1965 230SL

[kns]

Thank you very much for your efforts Cees. The vendor sounds completely unapologetic. I wonder how he can claim the car has 'original' seats, or that it is originally 40 years old? Some things like that can work (I don't mind the Pininfarina 113); others don't. This 'don't'!

Cheers,

kns.
1965 230SL, Manual
[1965 220SEb Coupe, Man.]

[pierre]

Thank you anyway for the fund of these rare pictures, the soft top shows a pagoda, and the rest... is very strange indeed, like 2 faults in german (das Verdeck instead of "daß Verteck"/ hinweisen, not "hinweißen" ).GFK is a plastic / polyester Body.
As far as I remember, Scheib used to make the first bad copies of the Mercedes SSK on a Volkswagen original Beetle chassis, it was a kind of buggy with some inspiration from a mercedes SSK 1929, reminding itvery approximatively and not full sized , Scheib made a bugatti as well, both cars were supposed to be cheap and very untrue  copies.
here is one of scheib's product:

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Here is the ssk -copy:

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And now, Gerhardt will be pleased: looking for old Scheib's photos, I found a Sbarro, famous transformer in Switzerland, a car reminding the cars of this post, including the wanted W 107: Sbarro answered to Gerhardt... 18 years ago:


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pierre 230 sl man -64, 2cv, 4cv, golf tdi, a6 tdi

[Ben]

It an awful shame, a mess !

Actually the 14" wheels look lost on it and it appears to have a fair bit of negative camber at the rear possibly due to the reduction i weight of the plastic body !!

I read recently that someone in the Isle of Man is reproducing 300SL Gullwing and Roadster's !!

Cant seem to get anuy more info though !!

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[pierre]

[I read recently that someone in the Isle of Man is reproducing 300SL Gullwing and Roadster's !!

Cant seem to get anuy more info though !!

Is it this one? It's just a picture I found somewhere:


Download Attachment: gullwing réplique jpeg.jpg
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[Ben]

Maybe that IS the one !

It looks like a good recreation, maybe using the W124 300 mechanicals, but what on earth is he doig with those wheels ??

Surely having made an entire car one could come up with something much more period than those items !!


Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[pierre]

Originally posted by Ben

Maybe that IS the one !

Making a gullwing replica isn't something new:
Gullwing Car Inc. in 19240 South Vermont Gardena California used to make this car with better wheels, outside okay, inside not to be compared with an original mercedes; lighter than the original , 1100 Kg instead of 1300; but equipped with a weak 150 HP 6 cyl. engine, 3.8 l, sometimes also with a V8. I heard they had problems with mercedes and were not allowed to have the star on the grill.
Anyway it has been sold I suppose in the USA. I'd like to know something more. Here are the pictures I found. They are 20 years ol

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[Ben]

Thanks for that Pierre !

One question I wondered about, why didn't MB ever put the 3.0 engine in the Pagoda ??

It was in use in the Fintail and 300SEb Coupe (W111) and surely didn't weigh that much more. Actually I may have answered my own question. AFAIK the 300SEb only produced 160BHP as oppossed to the 230SL's 150BHP !!

Still some tuning trick could've worked, or is the 3.0 engine much taller ?

Anyone ?

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[Cees Klumper]

Say what you will (and you have) but the high bid is now at over $30,000 and that's more than most nice Pagoda's go for! And there's 17 hours left to go ...

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[ja17]

Hello Ben and Pierre,
I first read of the gullwing replica about twenty-five years ago. Originally the high quality molds for the body were produced by a person in South Dakota USA. As time went on others got involved and the production moved to the West Coast. A investor here in Ohio became part owner in the enterprize. The versions I saw were extremely good reproductions neary undetectable inside or out. They looked authentic until the hood was opened and a modern Mercedes 280-SL M110 twin camshaft injected engine was fitted in a not so original tubular chasis with modern Mercedes suspension.
One evening I happened to have three original gulwings at my shop when one of these replicas pulled in with the local owner who wanted  to do a little comparison to the originals. His was a remarkably good reproduction even under close inspection. I was always suspicious that this reproduction was about 50% original gullwing parts and was mainly used as a sales tool to sell less authentic copies. The chrome, instruments, interior were just too good. This particular car was sold to the local Mercedes Dealer, Skip Potter who proudly displayed it on the showroom of the dealership from time to time.
I have no additional information as to what happened to the enterprize. I suspect that the production fixtures and molds have changed hands over the years with others trying to figure out how to make such a venture profitable.
Supposidly one of the reasons Mercedes discontinued production of the 300-SL was that they were very expensive to produce,took a very long time to build and were not profitable. Their main benefit to Daimler-Benz was that of an image and sales booster. This is why more than 1100 of the original 1402 gullwings were sold here in the USA. The introduction of this sensational car sparked the love affair with Mercedes in America.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[pierre]

[Thank you Joe Alexander for this very interesting information.
Wonderful how the infos go through thre whole wide world with this site!

I found out in between that Gullwing cars made their original (red on the foto from 1982) go to a better product : the grey one which was build 1992.
This grey car (look under mercedes réplique JPEG) belonged to the famous collector of Mercedes who died in a 300 sl carcrash as far as I remember, and whose cars were sold in Paris in an auction in February 2003: ROLF MEYER
That's what the catalogue said (in french, sorry, I can translate some sentences if You want:

Lot n° 3 :  Adjugé 113 309 € (743 258 FF)  
Mercedes-Benz 300 SL - Gullwing Cars - 1992 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Gullwing Cars -
1992Serial number: GW 1072Engine: in-line six-cylinder Mercedes-AMGTiming gear: DOHC four valves Intake: electronic injection and engine management Transmission: 5-speed + R manual gearboxChassis frame: square tubing spaceframe built by Gullwing CarsBody: fibreglass coupé Front suspension: independent, double wishbones, coil spring, antiroll bar Rear suspension: independent, double wishbones, coil spring, antiroll barWheelbase: 2 400 mm Front track: 1 495 mm Rear track: 1 480 mmDry weight: 1 250 kg Brakes: four discsWheels: 15 inches alloy wheels and D40 rimsTyres: Dunlop SP Sport 215/65 2R 15 Performance: 250 kph/156 mph

Les 300 SL “papillon” ou roadster sont rares et précieuses. Beaucoup de collectionneurs désirent participer à des compétitions sur circuit ou sur route mais craignent de risquer leurs automobiles véritablement originales dans des aventures comme la Carrera Panamericana. C’est pourquoi la société Gullwing Car, 19 240 S.Vermont à Gardena en Californie, fabrique à la demande, des répliques de 300 SL coupé, très bien faits, aux exactes dimensions extérieures, du modèle original. L’ensemble moteur, boîte de vitesse mécanique à cinq rapports, le pont, les trains roulants sont ceux d’une Mercedes AMG. Le tableau de bord est celui d’une 300 SL avec son instrumentation VDO. La direction est assistée, les freins sont modernes, assistés et à disques. L’échappement est latéral. On note des phares Bosch ronds, des rétroviseurs obus, un volant Nardi, une installation radio-laser Blaupunkt et un arceau quatre points gainé mousse et cuir. Comme toute bonne voiture californienne les glaces sont teintées et elle est équipée de la climatisation.
Les jantes de la Mercedes 190 2.5 litres 16 S détonnent un peu. Mais d’après le mécanicien de Rolf Meyer, on ne peut monter d’autres roues pour une question d’espace avec les étriers de freins.
 La voiture affiche 16 469 km au compteur. Son poids de 1250 kg et sa puissance de 280 ch lui donnent un rapport poids / puissance de 4,46 et des accélérations impressionnantes. Titre de circulation européenCertificat d’origine constructeur
€ 100/130 000


Cees, you're right, , that kind of replicas are very expensive too!

[Ben]

To be honest I CAN understand someone buying one of the US "Gullwing Cars" if they are as good as Joe says, even if the "show" car was possibly not what you'd get !

There is always room for replicas in the market once owners dont try to fool people into believing they are something they actually are not !

However this Ebay car just beggars belief. I presume the bids are from folk who wouldn't know a real SL, 300 or Pagoda, from a sandy hole in the ground ! $30k would buy a pretty nice Pagoda wouldn't it ?

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[Albert-230SL]

quote:Originally posted by cees klumper

Check out this creation:

   What a pity! They are destroying two really nice cars at a time... To built a replica of that kind with a basis like a Daewoo or Hyunday (better if closer to the real car) could be amusing... but to destroy a W113 making this... is a real crime  :?

Here is a link to a Spanish shop that sells another Gullwing replica (W124 engine)... the body is well made, but look at the wheels and the interior (you can enlarge the small pictures)... [!]... they ask 110.000 Euros for it! [:0]

http://www.bolsaclasicos.com/ventana_imagen.asp?IdFicha=41

Regards,

Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432

[pierre]

Thank you, Albert! And happy Pagoda birthday to your car!

This website, the classic cars and the replica(s)... It's always nice to see something new and rare. The red modern interior of this Gullwing is really not my taste... what a strange car.
But it was interesting to see what kind of classic cars this shop is selling and how the spanish market looks like.Most of thes cars were imported, weren't they?
Are there classic cars shops of that kind in Barcelona, too?
Best regards
Pierre

[Albert-230SL]

quote:Originally posted by pierre

Thank you, Albert! And happy Pagoda birthday to your car!

Thanks Pierre! Happy Pagoda birthday to your car too, both are from February 1964... the 40th birthday is a nice number  

quote:Originally posted by pierre

But it was interesting to see what kind of classic cars this shop is selling and how the spanish market looks like.Most of thes cars were imported, weren't they?
Are there classic cars shops of that kind in Barcelona, too?

I don't know where are they from, because this information is not in their site. All the cars show Spanish number plates, some of them seem original/vintage number plates, but they are so small that it's difficult to see if they have been registered now (imported) or have the original plates... Current Spanish plates have four numbers and three letters (For instance: 5674 CBF), and plates pre-2000, had the letter from the city, four numbers (six in old cars and no more letters), and one or two more letters depending on the age of the car (For instance, a Madrid's pre-72 car could be: M 725213, and a Barcelona's '79 car could be B 2569 DX)...

Anyway it's easy to find here classic cars imported just now: because of the Franco's Spanish dictatorship (from the '40 to the '70), imported cars were very rare in Spain due to its high taxes, and for this reason, to find a -for instance- Pagoda originally sold in Spain is difficult, because it was really expensive here. Most of people bought cars made in Spain, as Seat.

Yes, there are some similar classic car shops in Barcelona. Maybe there are not so many as in Madrid (or are usually smaller), but there are several of them.

Best regards,

Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432

[Ben]

Hey what about me...........??

My car was first registered on February 12th 1964, so last Feb 12th I went out and took some cool photos. I must post them tomorrow !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[Albert-230SL]

quote:Originally posted by Ben

Hey what about me...........??

My car was first registered on February 12th 1964...

Congratulations to your Pagoda too!    I didn't know that your was also from February '64  

Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432

[pierre]

congratulations and happy birthday to your Pagoda, Ben!
What's the WIN Number of your car?
Mine is 113 042 10 5 00036 02443; Albert told me, my car was made in february though papers show "1st registration:july 64"
Albert, a friend told when he saw the red interior of the Gullwing 300sl with GPS, etc... of Bolsaclassicos:
 "That must be the car of a beer-bar keeper down in Benidorm!"
By the way, I saw another replica of a special 300slr:
http://www.cars-on-line.com/2udirectory/55mb5899.jpg
They really have no respect!

[Cees Klumper]

You know Pierre, without those vertical bumper-overriders, this car would not look all that bad. Where do you find all these 'specials'? Any 'custom' Pagodas out there?


Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[pierre]

quote:Originally posted by cees klumper

. Where do you find all these 'specials'? Any 'custom' Pagodas out there?


Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

Yes, the car looks surely good, the 300 SLR is one of the most beautiful car that has ever been. But it's a copy of it, obviously in the arabic Emirates... and purists don't like it. The bumpers are here really wrong.
I found that picture making research of mercedes replicas for a mercedes forum. The american website:
http://www.cars-on-line.com
Look for "replicas" in the menu
The picture of the red gullwing comes from 20 years old magazines, as well as Scheibs replicas and Sbarros replica based on a R 107(?)
On german websites for used cars, I found pictures of  W115 ,W123 and W126 cabrio which is probably interesting for you, but nothing more about Pagodas; except maybe some different images (in a next post)
Here some replicas:


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http://www.motorlegend.com/users/forums/sandorf/DCPMBFK09.jpg

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