PC vs. Mac

[Dash808]

Over Christmas my wife and I went all in and made the switch to Mac. 
We traded our Blackberrys, laptops, and desktop for iPhones, Macbooks, and a Mac desktop and have never looked back.  So long MS.  The difference is amazing and my only regret is waiting so long to defect.     
This time the grass is greener on the other side 

Any other defectors out there?

[bpossel]

Hi Chan,

I switched to a MacBook Air this past summer. Used Dell's, and Compaqs since mid 80's.
My wife uses Macs for her business.  Love my Mac!
Bob

[SteveK]

I have a 13" MacBook Pro and a PC desktop.  I'm using the desktop less and less these days.  There is no comparison, everything works on the Mac all of the time.

[hauser]

No Mac here but I do Have an iPhone.  The iPad looks nice but will wait for the next upgrade.

[J. Huber]

Well, I am a double agent...

My first computer was a PC (IBM P/S 2). It was a pain. DOS commands, non-window based, etc... Somehow got me through Grad school and a rather boring thesis -- but I digress... I then switched to a PowerMac and was hooked. Like you Chan, I swore off the PC. (even though this was waaaay back in terms of technology.) However, once in the "real world" everything at the College was Windows/PC based. So I bought a Gateway for home. Then a Dell. They have been fine and served their purpose. The kids, however, have an Imac which is adorable and reliable. And we have more Ipods than I can count...

Its hard to say what we will get next time for our home use -- the Macs have changed so much and have obviously only gotten better (although not much less expensive). The Windows XP generation seemed pretty stable to me and skipping ahead to W7 may also be ok. The cost has gone way down which is a factor in my book.

[mdsalemi]

I grew up on pre PC's; moved to PC's and had Mac's thrust upon me in grad school in 1984.  They were cute, interesting--but one software bug caused an entire class to despise them: these first generation Macs, V1, September 1984, would allow you to create a document in any number of pages, but would only SAVE the first 9 pages.  I can't tell you how many people pulled their hair out after working all night on term papers etc. only to find the next day that most of their work was lost.  Then there was the little "bomb", which was Apple's cute way of saying they *&^%$ everything up and the only way out was accepting the screw up.

But, I'll cut some slack to Apple, it was gen 1.  On to PC's for real work.

Then I found myself back in the throes of the fledgling digital imaging arena, where the first front end programs were $15,000 software packages running on a $5,000 Mac.  Then the MacFx.  Infinitely superior to gen 1, but still way behind a PC in terms of software, bang for the buck, and all things NOT related to imaging.  So many programs related to photos and page assembly were only Mac based.

That was then.  Today, despite over 30 years of PC experience, I'm very seriously considering a Mac.  Nearly all of what I do is available in both Mac and PC versions.  A lot of peripherals are interchangable.  The only thing holding me back immediately is the cost of all my software changes.  Photoshop, Quark, InDesign, MS-Office, etc. all together are pretty pricey.

I'm just a little tired of having my PC spend a lot of time every day and every week purging (or scanning itself) for viruses.  This stuff takes a lot of time.  Every day Windows and the virus/internet software is downloading updates.  I'm a little tired of it.  Every now and then my computer (a nice Dell core 2 duo) goes into a frenzy and the disk starts churning, sometimes for 10 minutes or more and I have NO idea of what it is doing.  You can do almost nothing when this is happening.  Everything comes to a screeching halt.  This is purely the result of infinitely complex and sloppy programming.

I have to go to the Apple Store and talk to some folks there, and talk to some of my Mac friends to see where I need to be hardware wise to match the software I need.  But that's a trick.  Despite the fact that our economy here is in the toilet, you can't get NEAR the Apple store on a typical mall trip--it's full of teeny boppers and their iphone, ipod etc, getting reflashed, repaired, or shopping.  Serious investigation is impossible when 6 giggling girls are wondering why their Iphones aren't playing the Jonas Brothers correctly.

My wife says go on a Tuesday, 10AM when the mall opens, and make sure it is on a school day!  Maybe this week.

[Dash808]

Well it was the Lenovo/ Vista experience that broke this camel's back.  A 6 month new Lenovo laptop with Vista 64 bit that caused countless hours of aggravation from day one. 

Yes (most) Macs are more pricey but in the long run I think it equals out as one Mac should outlast two or three PC's, plus they just look darn good. I agree, James, PC prices are very cheap, almost disposable cheap, which they should be thinking back to my Lenovo experience.  I ended up giving it away.  I also gave away my old Dell Inspiron, and a Gateway desktop. 

I ended up with a 15" Macbook Pro, a 13" Macbook for the wife, a Mac Mini for a desktop, and four iPhone's (Don't ask).     
I did quite a bit of researching before taking the plunge and ended up buying everything through Apple's refurbished site.  You get the same warrantee and a good as new machine for a little discount.  The site is continuously updated and some machine's like the Mini goes extremely fast.
I think the Mac Mini will pull more people away from PC's.  They are the most affordable Mac to date (Starting @ $599).  Still decently powerful and very affordable.  Just plug in your existing monitor, USB keyboard, and mouse and your set. 

Michael, if your running a Dell Core Duo, a Mini would surely meet your needs.  If you do a lot of heavy video & photo editing and have some extra $$ a Mac Pro would really make you smile. 
What I did was create two partitions on all the machines.  On the 2nd partition I allocated 50gb and loaded Windows 7 (gasp) in the unlikely event that I run into a website, program, or situation that absolutely requires Windows.  It is really slick to have a dual boot option and easily switch between Mac or Windows.  The ironic thing is that Windows seems to run better on a Mac! 
I also installed MS Office for Mac and Adobe Photoshop CS4. 
I hope the Pagoda book is backed up!

I think what intrigues me is being able to walk up to my laptop, lift up the screen and presto it's ready to go if only in sleep mode.
Full boot time is only 30 sec from powering on to surfing the internet.  My "state of the art" Lenovo took around 5 minutes to startup.

The nice thing about Apple is they actually think when they design something, except for iTunes but that's another story... 

[Peter van Es]

Pleased to see so many of you making the switch. Statement of interest: I own shares in Apple, and am non-executive chairman of the largest Apple retailer in the Netherlands.

I made the switch two years ago. And I used to be a hardcore windows person. If you are a Windows person, if you haven't experienced the out-of-box experience of Apple in person, you should go and sit next to someone setting up an iMac.

The biggest hindrance to people switching to Apple is fear of the unknown. Everyone knows that buying a new Windows PC and then getting all of your old stuff from your old PC across is a two day job. First a two hour installation process of the OS after switching it on. Then making a backup DVD. Then removing all the crap demo software that they've bloated your PC with. Then installing your virus scanner, firewall etc. Then setting up your internet, e-mail account and so on. And then installing all your software again, downloading updates etc. Installing all your printer drivers. And finally rummaging around your old files and copying them across.

People then think: and that's how long it takes when I know my way around the system. They fear that it would be worse when you switch to a Mac. The reality is the opposite. You unpack it, switch it on, enter your e-mail details and 15 minute after carrying the box into your house, you can start doing productive work. (Or start messing with your music in iTunes, or your photo's in iPhoto...). That's one other big benefit: the iLife applications included with your Mac are actually very good.

And yes, you can then easily copy all your Windows files across.

I've gone so far as to not even have Microsoft Office on my Mac anymore. I've switched to Pages, Number and Keynote, since Office 2007 screwed up all the menu's I was used to with Office 2003. I have a free install of OpenOffice for when I need it.  Another big advantage: family packs. iWork costs $79, but for $99 you can install it on up to 5 Macs in your household (even if one of those Macs is in a student dorm somewhere).

I have VirtualBox on my Mac (it's free) and in that I have an install of Windows XP for the ONE program I still run I have no replacement for (Microsoft Money, and Microsoft in its infinite wisdom has pulled that product and will not be producing updates). So when they kill that, I need a good replacement for it for the Mac, and haven't found it yet, I need good multi-currency support and good international stock market support.

Then on price, or value. If you don't value your own time, then obviously a PC will appear cheaper. However, do understand how Dell sells. They lure you with a low price, but try to upsell you at every corner. Take a relatively high end iMac, and compare screen resolutions: the 21.5" has 1920x1080 pixels. The 27" has a whopping 2560x1440 pixels. Now make sure that the Dell (or HP, or whatever) system you choose is priced with a screen with the same specification. Dell's monitor that has specs that beat Apples (at 2560x1600) costs: $1399... that's only the monitor.

If you do that comparison meticulously, for CPU, RAM, disk space, add the antivirus software, and possibly even equivalent applications to the iLife suite, and then compare a Dell with the Apple, you'll find that the price difference is tiny. Then do the following check: on eBay, look for average prices for a 2 year old iMac. Then look for prices for  a similarly equipped two year old PC. The PC will cost next to nothing, whilst the iMac will still fetch a good price. Look at it like a car. A new Mercedes is more expensive to buy, but you'd be writing off less over the life of the car.

If you're interested, currently 15,28% of our visitors use a Mac (82,71% use Windows). A couple of months ago that was less than 14%. Overall worldwide Apple marketshare is below 10%, so you can see, we already have knowledgeable users here!

Peter

(PS: another great secret... if you have all your music in iTunes, did you know that you can stream it wirelessly to a stereo system using Airport Express, ($99) controlled by the free app for your iPhone or iPod Touch, Apple Remote? )

[mdsalemi]

I should have added one thing: Peter van Es.  If you have not met him, when you do, you will listen intently and he will command a lot of immediate respect.  I spent a few days with him around PUB and learned a lot about a lot of things, the Mac being one of them.

Peter needed to print something on my color laser here at my home.  Now, it was not too difficult to set it up for me on my primary machine when the printer was new.  But on my OTHER machines--those that access the printer through the wireless router ("Salemi's WiFi Hotspot"), it proved an inordinately tricky setup.  I managed to make it work but goodness knows how an average citizen could do it; average being one without a technical background and without decades of PC experience.  Peter came, in, his Mac found the router; found the printer, and more importantly, found what it needed to know to operate the printer without much input from him.  He was printing in a matter of moments.  With the smile of a Cheshire cat, mind you!

Chan--All the files for the Pagoda Style book reside on an external USB hard drive--none are on my PC's internal.  This gets backed up to a secondary external hard drive very frequently.  I was smart enough to smell the Vista troubles and like many, never made the switch.

It is interesting that Peter mentions iTunes, for if there is one thing that gives me pause, it's that.  My daughter uses iTunes and perhaps because of my early indoctrination in cutting edge software, I find absolutely nothing intuitive and nothing to like about anything with iTunes.  If my PC is working well (mostly it does) MP3 ripping, music management, and related work exceedingly well.   Then there is the fact that Apple chose about the absolute WORST wireless carrier on the planet in which to partner with their iPhone.  It is akin to Rolls-Royce putting a Yugo engine in their car--the best hardware system (iPhone) and the worst carrier (AT&T).  It's all about profit and product volume--they'd have perhaps double the demand for the iPhone overnight by switching to all the carriers; instead they chose one, and the worst one at that.  That's not my opinon folks, that's long-standing industry lore.  I keep hearing that the iPhone will be on Verizon this year.

Oh, and for those concerned: I certainly will NOT be making any PC/Mac changes until the Pagoda Style book is AT the printers!

[Dash808]

I agree, Verizon & Apple = a home run.   Hopefully that will happen next time around.  I believe the Apple and AT&T agreement expires in June?  Coincidentally that is when the next Gen iPhone should be rolled out.   

Interesting info, Peter.  It does seem more people prefer iWork over Office.  In iWork you can still modify and save in Office format.

I think when 1st timers start Mac shopping they wonder why in general the hardware is not quite as powerful as PC's when it is actually the opposite.  The demands of a Mac program or OS is not as taxing on the computer's hardware so the system runs faster and more efficiently, in my opinion. 
Also resale on a Mac is amazingly high. 

And in Steve Jobs words "It just works."  Michael and Peter, your printer experience proved that statement.       

[Cees Klumper]

I bought an Ipod for a music player a couple of years ago. Did not like the sound quality, nor the fact that the Itunes music I bought for it can only be played on their software. Sure you can convert it if you spend the time finding the right software, but that proved to be more hassle that I want to deal with. And once you have Itunes on your PC, it wants to update all the time, and these are very large files.
Anyway, because friends are so positive about the MAC, when time came for my wife's laptop to be replaced last year, I got her a MAC laptop. Every once in a while I'll use it, but I really don't like it; how cumbersome some commands are, the control pad's limited functionality, the bad key board quality, the fact that GarageBand stopped working and I can't figure out why, I could go on. The sales person (Peter: this was the Apple reseller in the Raadhuisstraat), when I asked about a virus scanner said: Apple does not have this problem. I still don't believe that! He also sold me software that he said would be perfectly compatible with MS products, but there are a lot of issues with that compatability, and also there are a lot of issues getting that software (like the spreadsheet or word processor) to do some very, very basic things like printing. The only thing the Apple does well as far as I am concerned is start up very quickly.
So in summary I am not an Apple fan, even after trying to become one.

[Peter van Es]

Cees,

I appreciate this.... but you're still applying years of Windows thinking to an Apple product. You'll need to "unlearn" all your old habits. The next time we see each other, bring the Mac... and I'll help you with it!

Peter

[Iconic]

I'm starting in late on this one, but I am with the group.
I had an early 80's Mac SE with a upgraded 40 MB harddrive !!! (WOOOO  ).
Then I went PC for years.
A few years ago I had 3 PCs in my home on a wired and wireless network with printers.
I was spending a fair amount of time being the home IT guy.
I had no Pagoda then.
Now I have 2 Mac Minis, and an iMac on wired and wireless network with printers. There is no need for a home IT guy anymore and I have time to work on my Pagoda.

[graphic66]

I agree Macs are better. But they are in most cases a lot more money. I do all my graphics on a Mac and all my surfing and accounting on Pc's. My friend, an IT guy has set up all my pc's with Norton Ghost. I never run any anti virus software. If the PC slows down I just do a full recovery using Ghost and my computer is back running just like new. PC's are designed to fail over time and it creates a cycle of repair and buying anti virus software. If you are unfortunate enough to have PC's, get norton Ghost and set up partitions in your hard drive so you can return to a pristine environment at any time. I don't know how to do it, my friend has set up all my pc's with this feature and hates Windows for creating this cloud of doom over every PC.
  So, if you want to run a PC and enjoy some real cheap hardware check out Norton Ghost, it works for me until my next computer, a MaC.

[Cees Klumper]

Cees,

I appreciate this.... but you're still applying years of Windows thinking to an Apple product. You'll need to "unlearn" all your old habits. The next time we see each other, bring the Mac... and I'll help you with it!

Peter

Thanks Peter - that's probably what I need, unlearning. Just like I am doing now, unlearning Amsterdam and getting to know Geneva. Well, today I received two invitations to the Geneva auto show, so that's good. OK, I will give it one more try, maybe we can work on it in France this summer ...

[Garry]

All this talk of Mac's convinced me that I needed to look at my computing needs so I went to the Mac Shop yesterday and got a quote for a replacement iMac for home and a MacBook Air for travel with the hangons.

One of the things stated was that I don't really need the Nortons 360 AntiVirus software that I am currently using. I note here that some still have Microsoft software on them so wont I still need an antivirus software if I also use Internet Explorer?

Now all I need to do is take the jump and spend the money.

Garry

[Peter van Es]

If you use Microsoft Office for a Mac you don't need anti-virus software. If you run the entire Windows operating system (either in Bootcamp, or in Parallels or Virtualbox) I would install a Windows anti-virus product -- except for when you do not have an internet browser on that Windows system, and no -- or well protected -- e-mail.

OS X is less susceptible to viruses because a) the system is less vulnerable and b) fewer people write viruses for MAC's because it's easier to write viruses for PC's and you have a target audience that's about 8.5x the size. Hence OS X doesn't need a virus scanner.

Internet Explorer is no longer available for OS X, so if you run that, you must be running Windows. But with great alternatives such as Safari, Firefox or Chrome, why do you feel the need to run Internet Explorer at all?

Peter

[mdsalemi]

For those that didn't really read between the lines, the early Mac's, (Mac II, Mac fX, etc.) were DREADFUL no matter what the Mac lovers say.

They crashed so often it makes Windows look like a gift from heaven.  Rebuilding a desktop was a regular occurance--and sometimes it took HOURS.  Fonts--you needed TWO sets of fonts (and goodness help you if they didn't all match) to do anything--a screen font to view it on your monitor, and a printer font to actually print anything.  It took TrueType to finally sort it all out, and bring it down to earth.  Prior to True Type, a single font cost in excess of $100--some a LOT more than that.  They used inordinately expensive SCSI drives--more expensive, little benefit compared to IDE.  The Mac's were the front end to my systems and I cursed them EVERY DAY.  But there was just no software on the PC's at the time, to do anything remotely similar in the graphics environment (today's equivalent of Photoshop and Page Design Programs like Quark, InDesign, Illustrator, etc.)

THAT WAS THEN.  This is now.  It's come full circle--Apple sorted it all out.  Windows is still turning people like me--and Iconic into IT guys and we don't want to be.

So, Peter, it isn't fear of the unknown--it is more undoing 20 years of behavior.  No fear, but it's like starting a new marriage? (not that I would know, but it's not something I want to do)  And, anyone in "PC Land" at least knows where they take the next step.  Moving to a Mac today for me, is going to take a bit of learning what and where the state of the art is...and how best to choose.

[66andBlue]

Mike,
with all respect I have to disagree, these machines were not dreadful at all but very reliable.
I used my first Mac II for office work (until the Quadra came out) but had several siblings in the lab, a MacSE and a MacIIfx. The SE arrived in 1988 together with an instrument under its control (a 96-well microplate reader if you want to know) and both were still functional and very useful when I retired in 2007!  Never replaced the hard drive, or either processors (it also had a floating point co-processor).  The only problem I had was that the IT group did not allow the computer to be linked to the first local net when it was installed since these guys were all Microsoft brain-washed (but a smart grad student figured out a method to beat them anyway  )
When I bought my second reader 5 years later the company had decided to couple its newer version with a PC.  Why? Because they liked the fact that they could sell a very expensive maintenance contract - the reader didn't make trouble, no the computer always needed to be worked on because every time MS changed something (which had to be installed as mandated by the IT department) the interface was screwed up and a company technician had to fix it again.    Nice little racket - wouldn't you say?

[J. Huber]

Does anyone remember "soft windows?" That was about as pathetic as it gets -- trying to have an Apple behave like a PC.

I have to also disagree about the earliest Apples being unreliable. The Mac IIs struck me as pretty durable relative to the PCs of that era.

My fear now -- should I "upgrade" back to a Mac from my PC is -- converting (and saving) all my years of Quicken and TurboTax files. I have no idea where the original software is and if it would even be compatible... Anyone know? Pictures and word files are no big deal.

[66andBlue]

Hi James,
transfer one of your old Quicken or TurboTax files to portable USB drive and stick into a Mac that has TurboTax (or Quicken)  installed. I would bet that the Mac version will be able to open it. Just try it.
SoftWindows .. sure! But do you remember "Volkswriter"?

[J. Huber]

SoftWindows .. sure! But do you remember "Volkswriter"?

No, not really. During the 80s I somehow did all my undergraduate stuff on a "type writer." Anyone remember those? I did take a computer class though -- there were some kind of punch cards involved? and we had to learn BASIC. Pretty much turned me into a History major.

So as I peek at the Apple store I see the Mini. And then the Imac. Or the big Daddy the MacPro?  If I want a desktop, are those my choices?And if I did the mini, is the LCD Cinema Monitor for 899 my only choice? (the mini is a desktop computer isn't it?)

[66andBlue]

Yes, the Mac mini is a desktop computer and you'll need to buy a monitor. Remember that you get a College discount!
You might find a good used monitor, but it needs a compatible plug or adapter. And if you do check the screen for dead pixels.
I use the mini and my wife has my older iMac (non-Intel) with the integrated screen. I prefer to have them separate because sometimes I like to connect my MacBook to an external screen. 
Volkswriter see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VolksWriter .

[Garry]

James,
Looking at the book I have from Apple in front of me there are two Mac Mini a 2.26GHz with 2GB RAM and 160GB Hard Drive and the 2.53GHz with 4GB RAM and a 320GB Hard Drive.
The lower spec can be upgraded to a 4GB Ram
Alfred, I am tossing up between the iMac and having a Mini with seperate monitor. Only problem is that Apple is quite expensive for their displays here quoting me $AUD1,499 for the LED Cinema Display. When I put the two together they exceed the price of the top 21.5" iMac.

Decisions!!!

[Dash808]

Any display will work with the Mini, with the right adapter.  You would either need a VGA adapter for most displays, or a DVI  adapter. 
Right now I am using my wife's 22" display off her Gateway with a VGA adapter.   

Apple displays are the best no doubt, however Dell was just offering a Viewsonic 22" display for $130, shipped.   That's hard to beat. But if you're thinking of a Mini and an Apple display, price wise you would be better off with an iMac.  Everything you need plus a wireless keyboard and mouse.   I would say the Apple Care 3 yr warrantee is a must especially with an iMac because if the display goes out, your toast.   One of the reasons I went with the Mini.  Plus if you are ambitious enough the Mini's hardware can be upgraded (Not Apple approved) whereas an iMac is very well sealed.