Author Topic: ZDDP  (Read 9780 times)

dseretakis

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ZDDP
« on: February 17, 2010, 21:55:25 »
Is there any benefit in using a ZDDP rich oil in these cars?  Brad Penn comes to mind as a good zinc enriched oil.

SteveK

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 01:56:00 »
Yes, it will save your camshaft and rockers.  (I learned the hard way on this one)

dseretakis

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 02:19:13 »
Did you experience this kind of wear on a pagoda or other old MB?

SteveK

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 11:24:08 »
Pagoda, but I can't really tell you what caused the issue.  I had 4 lobes on the camshaft scored, 2 of which were worn down 1/8th inch.  After I did some reading I found a number of articles about why our Pagoda's (engines without roller rockers) need the older style oil with ZDDP.  I replaced the cam, rockers and ball studs and now use Shell Rottela in the engine.

dseretakis

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 14:59:45 »
Do you use Shell Rotella 15W40 diesel oil?

SteveK

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 00:45:52 »
Yes, Shell Rotella "T" Heavy duty motor oil SAE 15W-40.  On the back of the jug it lists all of the diesel engine manufacturers it is compatible with. (most of the diesels I've heard of over the years)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 03:19:43 by SteveK »

dseretakis

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 01:20:05 »
Thanks! I used to use Shell Rotella in my 220D.  I guess its more versatile than I think.

Jonny B

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 01:29:11 »
I must be living on borrowed time. I use Mobil 1 and have not had any difficulties. There are several strings on the subject. Yes ZDDP does provide a thin layer of anti wear, but this is usually only a major issue with the really high performance engines.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

SteveK

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 03:26:51 »
Actually, most of the article's I've read say the story is still out on synthetics.  Not enough time and usage has gone by yet to see what happens on engines without roller rockers. After spending $1500 and a 3 day weekend rebuilding the top end of my engine, I figured I did not want to be part of the experiment.  (I have to admit however it was a fun weekend ;D)  Synthetics may be great, (or not) time will tell!

mdsalemi

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 14:05:08 »
This question has come up before, and it appears as if the answer is still the same as the last time--which isn't a revelation as it has changed over the years.  I think some of this can be found in a thread called Mobil 1 or something similar.

The correct Mobil 1 to use in our older engines is the one formulated for such, which is their 15W-50 with the SILVER cap:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_15W-50_.aspx

There was an issue a few years ago, where the consortium of engine remanufacturers got together and pooled their knowledge and were finding that there was a "above average" number of remanufactured older engines failiing prematurely.  When they all got together and discussed it the culprit turned out to be modern oils without ZDDP in older engine designs. (Note this was not specific to Mobil 1; but the absense of this lubricant in the oils used in the remanufactured engines).

I think that regardless of who manufactures the oil, there are limiits courtesy of our Federal government on the amount of ZDDP and Phosphorus and other compounds in the oil.  They would hold true for any oil, though.  I also believe there are extra-wear additives that you can add to oil.  There's a lot of information available on the subject on the internet, not surprisingly concentrated in Corvette (older but high performing engines) and Triumph (older and ancient design) forums!  The debate rages on and changes with each engine breakdown (looking for a culprit) and with each oil reformulation.

Long story short, there was a short period of time when NO Mobil 1 product had the proper lubricant for older engines; it has since been reformulated and the link above is the product.  FINDING it, however, isn't always easy: you may need to mail order or special order it.  It is not always on the shelf of local auto parts stores.  The naysayers claim that Mobil's discussion of the product are vague.

The other issue with synthetics in general (again, not limited specifically to Mobil 1) is the claim that when people put it in, all kinds of leaks happen.  I called Mobil on this and their claim is that it does not cause leaks, but if you have leaks, albeit small and controlled leaks that are common on say, a 40+ year old engine that has not been rebuilt, the use of synthetics may indeed exacerbate them.

I started using Mobil 1 the moment my engine came back from Metric nearly 10 years ago.  I don't have any leaks to speak of; it didn't cause any in a freshly rebuilt engine.  Others here on the forum with non-rebuilt engines who switched to synthetics suddenly discovered all kinds of leaks.  I don't have an overdrive; I don't have a 5-speed; I don't have a modified or replaced rear axle, it is "as delivered" and the car is running 4,000 RPM at highway speeds.  About 13,000 miles since rebuild, no apparent issues yet.

Use what works for you.  My local mechanics generally use the diesel class Rotella in older engines, as do lots of vintage Mercedes users.  The more research you do the more contradictory information you'll find.  Nothing like gray area to clear it all up! ::)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 14:29:42 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 14:35:30 »
Is there any benefit in using a ZDDP rich oil in these cars?  Brad Penn comes to mind as a good zinc enriched oil.

You have the right oil there, Brad Penn One Racing Oil, 20 W 50, the green stuff.  Formerlly Kendall oil and is made from Pennsylvania crude.  Excellent ZDDP content and blend with other ingredients, which many don't consider...it's more than just ZDDP.
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

mdsalemi

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 15:48:56 »
...many don't consider "the other ingredients" because they are unspecified and or proprietary.  Therefore, no matter who makes the claims, they are that--claims.  Nobody like us can quantify or assess the benefit of a mystery ingredient, now can we?  Why is "Pennsylvania Grade" crude demonstrably better than a synthetic?  Is "Pennsylvania Grade" the same as "German Engineered" (VW's assembled in Brazil?) Kendall doesn't own the wells, and if it were that superior everyone would be refining oil from PA.  But, they are not.

Kendall/Brad Penn has a good reputation, and lots of followers.  They have a good list of testimonials, but a sanction by Crane Cams means little for a 40 year old Mercedes engine.

Mobil 1 has lots of claims, some vague.  They too have a long list of followers.  It's the official oil of Nascar--but those Nascar engines, too, bear little resemblance to ours.

Amsoil has lots of proponents, and a lot of "White Papers" to prove their claims.  Why, their oil is superior in "Thin Film Oxygen Uptake Tests" compared to 10 other oils.  What does that have to do with performance in the M127?

Castrol Syntec 20W-50 also has boosted levels of ZDDP.  But we don't hear too many people talking about it.  Castrol is a preferred oil on the NHRA circuit.  NHRA engines bear little resemblance to older MB engines.

These claims by everyone will only confuse you.  Every oil manufacturer claims superiority in a way that is impossible to quantify to make sense to us.  Do use, however, of the brand you choose, the KIND of oil recommended.  That should be a given.  Almost everyone now has a part of their website to choose the oil for your car.  Older, higher revving engines with older valve designs are part of the mix today in oil spec.

But I do have the best oil for anyone--that is FRESH oil and regular changes!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 15:57:06 »
...many don't consider "the other ingredients" because they are unspecified and or proprietary.  Therefore, no matter who makes the claims, they are that--claims.  Nobody like us can quantify or assess the benefit of a mystery ingredient, now can we?  Why is "Pennsylvania Grade" crude demonstrably better than a synthetic?  Is "Pennsylvania Grade" the same as "German Engineered" (VW's assembled in Brazil?) Kendall doesn't own the wells, and if it were that superior everyone would be refining oil from PA.  But, they are not.


Jake Raby and Charles Navarro have done performance testing and analysis of the balance of additives in various oils.  Google it.  I'll go with their conclusions, about as objective an approach as I've seen.  They don't work for the companies, but, I believe, as a result of the testing, Navarro sells Brad Penn.  There are a few youtube videos showing the testing...to extreme levels.  Navarro has analyzed the oils specifically for the vintage Porsches and VWs his business revolves around.  http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html  http://www.lnengineering.com/index.html  http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/

« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 16:29:28 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

Ron

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Re: ZDDP
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 18:11:37 »
I agree with Michael, the best prevention here is frequent oil changes.  The oils are being modified almost daily due to emissions restrictions.  

As an aside, I have a 1993 Dodge truck with the Cummins engine since new.  It has 330,000 miles on it now, and has been the best vehicle I've owned when it comes to reliability.  (one spring in the Bosch injection pump broke, but engine is has never been touched beyond oil changes.)  I use Delo 400 in the Cummins engine, which is similar to the Rotella, and I change the oil at half the Dodge recommended interval, 3,000 miles.  

Many folks with this engine are worried about the loss of ZDDP.  Some new diesels have converters and the anti wear additives like ZDDP foul the catalyst.  Those additives have been removed, or cut back in all oils.  It has been discussed quite a bit, here and other places:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com

It's my impression that there are other additives added in place of the ZDDO, just none as durable.  So if you change your oil frequently or add the ZDDP to the engine yourself, the engines should be OK.

Ron


« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 16:00:19 by Ron »
1966 230SL, euro