Bridgestone Insignia SL tire

[dakman29]

I see that there is a Bridgestone all season tire available in 205 70 14 with a white sidewall stripe called the Insignia SL.  I was wondering if anyone in the forum has any experience with that tire on a 280sl.  Thanks.

[IXLR8]

I don't know anything about the specific tire you are citing.

However, after the shameful way that Bridgestone/Firestone acted--cover-ups, misrepresentations, blame-shifting, etc.-- during the Ford Explorer tire blow-out fiasco some years back, I decided that I would never consider Bridgestone/Firestone for any product they make.

[dakman29]

Thanks for your comments, but isn't that a little like saying we shouldn't be driving cars produced by Mercedes in the 60's because that company supplied vehicles to the Third Reich in the 30's and 40's.  If the Bridgestone tires I mentioned are bad tires I wouldn't want to put them on my car. If, on the other hand they are good tires at what appears to be a good price, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase them because in the past the manufacturer was a poor corporate citizen.

[graphic66]

They are rated at S speed rating of112MPH max. Not a match for the top speed of the W113. It is hard to find tires in this size with a U=124MPH or an H=130MPH in this size. The speed rating may not matter to you though. I am not sure of a tire that has that speed rating but would be curious of others input.

[graphic66]

This is probably the best choice, but also the most expensive http://www.universaltire.com/205-70vr14-vredestein-sprint-classic-blackwall.html  This is on my wish list.

[dakman29]

Thanks:  I've seen those tires and I'd like to have them as well, but for the price.  The Bridgestones are listed on the Tire Rack site at @ $50 per tire. My interest was piqued by the availability of a white sidewall stripe, but the cosmetics of the sidewall can't overcome shaky performance.  At $50 per tire though, it's almost worth taking a flyer.

[Jordan]

Dakman29

I just put Uniroyal Tigerpaw AWP II whitewall tires on mine two weeks ago.  They are 195 75R14 however, which is the best fit diameter wise for the originals.  I've only put 100km on them so too early to say how comfortable they are but the ride thus far has been great, certainly compared to the tires I just removed.  They are S rated also, which is more than I'll ever get away with on our roads.

[zoegrlh]

Best bet is the Vredestein Sprint Classic 185-HR 14 90H.  Made in Holland, for autobaun use.  The closest you will get to original specs.  They even have the curb bump, as did the originials.  Only in black wall.  See the thread on tires.
Bob

[dtuttle123]

Jordan -

I too have the Uniroyal Tigerpaw whitewalls - for the last 3 years - have performed well!  I try to keep my 250SL under 100 mph.

[rmmchl]

i have the bridgestone insignias on my 250sl----------------they are smooth, quiet, and much better than the original firestone belted jobs that came on these cars..........I dont think anyone wants to drive our pagodas over 120 mies an hour. give me a break with that guys comments about the speed rating being low. Go ahead and buy them. Mine look good and the ride is smooth and quiet

[wd]

rmmchl you might have a point about the speed, I was looking again at the youtube high speed SL crash.   Seems all four tires are inflated and intack just as he rolls back onto them.  Wonder what brand they were?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-2O7W44-Z4

[dakman29]

Thanks for all of the helpful comments.  I think I'm convinced to give these tires a try, and I will try to stay under 120 mph.

[graphic66]

Speed rating affects handling, the lower the speed rating, the lower the handling. You make the choice. Here is a good write up http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091018171217AA81Uyg  I searched around the web and came up with the same answer, speed rating of a tire is important. It is your choice and of course lower speed rated tires are less money. When I want to save money I drive my Ford Focus. I just couldn't justify saving money on my SL. My current tires are the lower speed rating. I was way less educated when I purchased them. I cannot afford $1000.00 for tires at this point. If anyone finds a 205/70/14 with an H speed rating for a good price I would like to know.
    After my research it is going to be a hard decision at tire time. Those Vredstiens just look so cool. Maybe I will sell some parts to get those way to expensive tires. But, lets do some research, there must be a less costly alternative that meets our cars requirements.
   And yes, I don't think anyone is going to go over 120MPH, but my research shows that low speed handling is greatly affected by speed rating also, and I really like to take the curves in my car in a spirited way every now and then and when someone runs that stop sign I really want to avoid the crash as best as possible.   
   Maybe at the next Blacklick get together a comparison could be made side by side. My guess is that just about every W113 out there has underrated tires just because of the availability issue of our required size.

[bogeyman]

I guess I am missing the logic why you want to go to an oversize tire.
To get the true original feel and handling these cars were designed for, you need the original 185HR14 tire.
I have seen Vredestein sprint classics in that size for about $150 each on the web.

[thelews]

I'll be getting Vredestein Sprint Classics from www.blackforestllc.com in 205/70-14, V rated.  Currently, I have 12 year old Michelin Energy MXV4 205/70-14 on the car.  Excellent shape, but don't trust the age as I try often to reach 90mph or more.  The drive and feel is much better with the 205s.  I also put 205/70-14 on my 190 SL, with 113 type 14 inch wheels, replacing the 13 inchers that are stock.  MUCH better feel and ride.  That's why.  But, they look better too.

[hauser]

John Please post pics of new tires.   

[bogeyman]

Well, I guess beauty (and feel) is in the eye of the beholder (feeler?).
I have 205s on my '70 and 185s on my '69 and I prefer the 185s, look and feel.
Different strokes...

[graphic66]

Bogeyman, What kind of tires are you using? I like the look of the 205's, but the 185's do have a more "original" look. What do you like more about the 185's?

[bogeyman]

My 185s are Vredestein Sport Classic  the 205s are Pirelli P4000.
I guess I am a "traditionalist' in that I like the original look of the 185s.  The 205s look like oversized doughnuts to me. I know that is the current trend to oversize and on some newer vehicles I do it myself, but I just don't like it on a Pagoda.
As far as feel, the 185s give me a more direct road feel. I know they probably won't give as many Gs in a corner, but I appreciate driving the car as the original designers intended, JMO

PS - The only reason I have the 205s is because they were a "hand-me-down" from my '72 107 when I replaced them - just thought i'd try them out that way.

[Travis71280]

I got Bridgestone Insignia SE200 195/70R14 on mine and love them. I was considering the 205s but I heard they cause a slight tire rub. Don't worry about the whole Bridgestone/Firestone blowout deal on the Ford Explorers awhile back, that was actually caused by underinflation causing the sidewalls to heat up.

[Raymond]

It isn't just the size that affects handling.  It is the tire compound, tread pattern, sidewall structure, inflation, as well as shock condition, spring condition, and wheel alignment.  I'd be willing to bet the Vredestein 195's would out perform the P4000 205s on the same car in about any test you'd care to make.  I had a set of those Pirellis on a car a few years back and I couldn't wait to get rid of them.  I'll never have another set of Pirellis. 

I like the 205 size on the Pagoda because after searching for the stickiest compound and best wet traction tread, I want as much of that tread on the pavement as I can get.  Stopping in the rain is the most important consideration I have when tire shopping. 

That said, I wish I could find a performance tire in white walls. 

[RickM]

Personally I would not utilize a tire with less than an "H" rating.

The argument that a higher rated tire responds or handles better is, IMO, debatable......there are so many variables to take into account.

Below is one of the better explanations, from an engineering site. Food for thought.......



"I'm a tire engineer for a major manufacturer of tires.  I get into these discussions all the time and perhaps I can add my expertise to your discussion.  Please post a URL.

But here's the scoop:

The ECE test requires a tire to be tested at increasing speeds in a stepwise manner at 77F on a smooth wheel and sustain the rating speed without structural failure for 10 minutes.  Yup, 10 minutes!

But as most engineers will tell you, you should "over-design and under-utilize".  This applies to every product including tires.  So vehicle manufacturers will specify a tire that exceeds the maximum speed of the vehicle.

Tire manufacturers want ALL their tires to pass the speed rating, so they'll specify that all their production tires exceed the test by some margin.  Does this mean 20 minutes?  Does this mean 100F (The SAE version!), Does this mean one additional step up in speed?  Depends on the manufacturer.

This "over-design / under-utilize" credo is important as it has a basis in reality.  It's been found that barely meeting the conditions - load capability, speed capability, etc. - results in a certain rate of failure in the real world.  And while we can talk about underinflation, road hazards, etc., the reality is that over-specifying a tire results in reduced failure rates.

But there is one aspect that deserves additional comment.

Pretty much every tire will pass an S rating. (Please note that I'm limiting the discussion to regular passenger car tires.  Winter tires and light truck tires are a different story - similar, but different.)  And T ratings are not much of a stretch.

So an S rating would - on the surface - seem to be adequate for use in the US where there are speed limits everywhere.

But, in order to pass an H speed rating, a tire more or less has to have a cap ply*.  This change has a profound effect on failure rates, way beyond what the increase in speed rating suggests. The failures rates are so low for tires with cap plies that court room "experts" claim that tire manufacturers are negligent for not using cap plies even in their S rated products.  (My response to that is that these "experts" must also be saying that tires ought to have a minimum of an H speed rating - and if that is true, the "experts" ought to be lobbying NHTSA to specify H rated tires for any tire sold in the US.)

But the point I want to make is that the step between T and H is enormous from a tire durability point of view.  And I don't recommend anyone use anything less than an H rated tire.  Considering that the risk of a tire failure includes fatality, the cost / benefit seems to be there."
 


Comments to note further in the discussion:

* "A cap ply is a additional layer of a fabric and rubber composite that is applied over the belts and oriented in more or less the circumferential direction.  What it does is restrict the growth of the tire in the circumferential direction - like centrifugal forces.  But I also think it adds bulk and reduces the standing wave, which may actually be more important in the context of tire failure."

and

"The caution I want to give you is that the speed rating is the result of a test and just because it passes the test doesn't mean the tire will perform."




Here is the entire thread from the Tire Engineering forum: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=159900&page=4

[graphic66]

Where can you get an H rated 205/70/14 for a price under $250.00. There must be a good tire for less money than the Vredstiens. And yes I agree the Pirelli Vredstien comparison is not really fair. They are completely different. I would like to see someone compare the two sizes of Vredstien. All of my amatuer internet research shows that as the speed rating goes up so does the handling. I also have heard many complaints about the Pirellis and none about the Vredstiens.There must be a happy medium somewhere. How about the Sumitomos http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Sumitomo&tireModel=HTR+200&partnum=07HR4HTR200

[RickM]

This is interesting:

CHICAGO (Feb. 4, 2004) - Bridgestone/Firestone North American Tire, LLC (BFNT) today introduced the Bridgestone® Insignia SE 200T with UNI-T® technology....
Replacing the Bridgestone Insignia SL, the new Insignia SE200 delivers the desired attributes of UNI-T® technology for the value-conscious vehicle owner. The new tire offers a wider footprint and improved silica-based compound for wet traction. The Bridgestone Insignia SE200 will be available in 29 popular 13-, 14-, 15- and 16- inch sizes within the 80 to 55 series.

[RickM]

All of my amatuer internet research shows that as the speed rating goes up so does the handling.  How about the Sumitomos http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Sumitomo&tireModel=HTR+200&partnum=07HR4HTR200

Who made the claims regarding speed ratings and "handling"?

I had two sets of Sumitomo HTR200s on my 107 and rate them an 8 out of 10. They wore very quickly but performed well and were relatively quite.