petronix ignition installation

[bob hall]

Gentlemen,
I am, on the collective advice of this column, about to install a Petronix ignition, #1864LA into my 1965 230SL,
 Bosch distributor 051.

I cannot find a wiring diagram; Where do I put the red wire, where goes the black, what do I do w/ the green wires that run down to the transistor box. 

I am afraid if I do not do this right I will let the $moke out of $omething.

Please help, we have a tour this weekend

Thanks

bob hall

[mdsalemi]

Bob,

First, I do indeed believe you have the correct model Pertronix.

Did it NOT come with the instruction set?

http://www.pertronix.com/support/manuals/pdf/ignitor12vneg.pdf

Are you using the original Bosch coil, or did you get a Pertronix coil too?

You will use Figure 3, Ignitor System with Ballast Resistor.  You will note that a wire comes from the harness (from the ignition switch); to the ballast resistor; and then to the + side of the coil.  the - side of the coil is where the BLACK wire from the Ignitor is attached.  The RED wire from the Ignitor goes to the same part of the ballast resistor (input) as does the wire from the ignition.  It is a very simple install.

I do not know what you are talking about when you say "transistor box".  The 230SL did not come with this (only very late 280SL).  The Pertronix is all self-contained inside the distributor.  Is it possible you already have some kind of aftermarket ignition system?

Notes:

1)  You may need to do some filing (metal removal with a file) on the ignitor to get it to fit properly on the distributor base plate.  I did on mine, identical -051 distributor.  Others seem to have it drop right in.  Who knows.
2)  You will achieve better results if you get the Flamethrower II hi-power coil as Pertronix suggests.  You can then eliminate the use of a ballast resistor.
3)  With a functioning pertronix, you might be able to open up your spark plug gap just a little, and get better runnability.

[Cees Klumper]

Good luck with the install Bob. Couldn't help notice you have a very appropriate last name for this particular job, since as far as I know the Pertronix functions on the basis of the 'Hall principle'?!

[bob hall]

Michael,

Thanks for the initial help, I've hooked it all up according to the diagram and your instructions but it won't start.

The "transistor box" is a square aluminum finned box mounted next to the horns, there are  one or two (not really sure how many) wires  running from it to the distributor. I assume it has something to do w/ ignition as the two wires, green & brown, were attached to the distributor originally. As these wires do not fit into the scheme of things, Petronix-wise I do not know what to do with them but it does seem as if they are crucial to the operation.

Our car certainly has been modified, goodness knows what happened to it before our ownership. We replaced the non-original
engine a couple of years ago with a "proper" 280sl unit but made no ignition changes.

You may have guessed I am not a "natural" mechanic & find things electrical mysterious.
Please bear with me.

Thanks again for any further help you can provide

bob

[jeffc280sl]

Sounds to me like you have the later 280SL transistorized ignition.  Search under that topic and you will find a picture of the box.

[mdsalemi]

Bob,

I can't imagine (but goodness knows, anything is possible) anyone retrofitting a later style Bosch [electronic ignition box] unit to an early distributor and a 230SL.  My guess is you have some kind of aftermarket unit.  What was inside the distributor prior to you installing the Pertronix?

With the Pertronix you do not need any of that old stuff.  You need the coil, the '+' wire from the ignition and the Pertronix.  You should not have or need any older wires going from the box to the distributor.

Is it possible you forgot to replace the rotor?  If the car was running PRIOR, installing the Pertronix is pretty simple; I suspect something simple.  I know Jim Villers here has installed several of them; and they have gone in quickly w/o having to do anything other than the install.  Mine went in quickly.

If you don't feel comfortable doing the work yourself, you should hopefully be able to "put it all back" to running with what you had, and take it to your local mechanic if you have one.

[bob hall]

Michael,
From the looks of things I do have transistorized ignition, is it possible to use the Petronix w/ this system?  If so what do I need do?
This gets curiousor & curiousor.
Thanks
bob

[mdsalemi]

Bob,

The first thing to do is identify which unit you have in your car.

If you have an aftermarket unit, my guess is you'll need to remove it entirely, because what you are doing is replacing it.  Again, the Pertronix only needs what is indicated in the instructions.  In your case it would be the + wire from your ignition switch, a coil, the distributor, and the ballast resistor.  If you switch to the Pertronix coil (higher voltage than any of the Bosch coils) you can eliminated the ballast resistor as well as it is balanced to work with the Pertronix.

There are many people here who have completely original and conventional ignition systems, and have for years.  They'll tell you, as I do as well, that you can't overcome problems somewhere else on your car by the addition of a Pertronix.  A worn distributor, or a fuel problem, or a voltage problem because of the ignition switch, or any other number of items can contribute to "runnability" issues and the Pertronix will not solve them.

The Bosch system that Jeff pointed out was fitted to 1970-1971 280 SL's.  I don't have one so I'm not familiar with it.  Note that the late style transistorized ignition is described in the Wiki Tech Manual http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/TransistorIgnition  You might have to be a full member to access, and it is access to things like this which make the membership fee worth every $.  You should consider it...

A lot of the aftermarket units went to breakerless or "no points".  They fall into two main categories--optical switching like the Crane unit http://cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&lvl=5&prt=160 or "hall effect" switching such as the Pertronix.  The hall effect uses a magnet ring placed over the distributor shaft, and as the magnet approaches the proximity of the unit inside the distributor, it switches.  I had the Crane, worked flawless for 5 years.  Then I switched to the Pertronix, and that too, is working fine.

The two units most people here use are the aforementioned: the Crane, and the Pertronix.  I know there are others out there, and the latest rage is the 123 distributor.

[IXLR8]

Hi--

I've used the Pertronix ignition system on my VW for 10 years now.  No problems whatsoever!!

If/when I get the 230SL on the road, it's definitely a Pertronix system.

Joe

[graphic66]

I put the Velleman electronic ignition on my 230SL. http://www.velleman.eu/downloads/0/illustrated/illustrated_assembly_manual_k2543.pdf 
   You build the system as a kit, soldering things to a cirquit board. This uses the points as a low amperage switch and eliminates the ballast resistor and condensor. The best part is that the car definitly runs better, the points last for a very long time 30,000+ miles, and you can switch back in a few minutes if the system should ever fail. You would just run the wire from the ballast resistor and hook up the condensor and be back to stock. I have never had an issue with the system since instalation. I am an originality nut like many of us here, but I also like to build things like this system. It was fun to do, works better than the stock system and can be reverted back to stock very easily. Best of all the cost is about $30.00 for the kit. I mounted the cirquit board on top of the left front shock under my plastic shock cover. You can however put it anywhere it can have some air space around it, like under the dash or even in the trunk or under the parcel panels very easily. The best part is not having to install points every 5000 or so miles, with the Velleman you get over 30,000 miles on a set of points. The rubbing block wears out before the points. More power, easier starting, smoother running, less maintanance and easily changed back to stock all add up to a nice package for very little money. It is also fun to build!

[bob hall]

Gentlemen, particularly Michael,
Thank you for all your advice & concern, I am defeated by this and will return to points, rather an expensive lesson.
bob

[RickM]

Gentlemen, particularly Michael,
Thank you for all your advice & concern, I am defeated by this and will return to points, rather an expensive lesson.
bob

Bob, don't quit. Perhaps you can post some pictures of your setup. The info will surely assist members in providing more accurate advice and instruction.
If you don't know how to post or don't have the time feel free to Email me and I'll post for you.

[Naj ✝︎]

Hi, Bob,

I'm with Rick,

Post some pix of what you've got now and what coil etc you want to use and we can try and help you out.

I fitted one some years ago, so pix may help remember how things go together.

naj

[mdsalemi]

Yes, Bob--don't quit.  The Pertronix is one of the easiest installs there is.  The hardest part I had to do was file the base.  Some people have not had to do that.

Take some photos, determine what you have and we'll all try to help from here.  It is really pretty simple, and if it isn't working my guess is the solution is simple too.

[bob hall]

To all concerned,

OK, OK, I shall endeavor to persevere.   Today a new Bosch Blue coil went in, still nothing.  I am convinced that the wires from the transistor box need to be connected to something.  One wire from the transistor box seems, according to the wiring diagram, to be a ground, I can do that. The other is or was connected to the hot side of the points, where that should now be connected I am yet uncertain.  Out here in darkest New Mexico there are not a lot of vintage Mercedes mechanics. 
I will post photos if a shot of a bunch of old wires helps, you would probably do better looking into your coat closet at night with the lights out but I am, at this point, willing to try anything.
On a side note look at www.santafeconcorso.com  It's a little automotive gathering we are presenting of which I am part.
Thanks you all

bob

[Naj ✝︎]

Hi, Bob,

As I see it, the problem you have at the moment is that with the transistor box, the power to the coil is switched by the transistor and the #1 terminal (on the coil) is grounded.

On the conventional systems, the coil is switched by the points or electronic device so, for example, the black wire on your pertronix would be connected to the #1 terminal on the coil.

How many ballast resistors are being used with the blue coil?

naj

[bossanov]

Bob, make sure the coil is NOT grounded.

Thanks,
B

[mdsalemi]

With the Pertronix, there is NO need for any external boxes; if you have them installed, and more importantly, wired to anything, you could be creating problems.  The Pertronix is self contained inside the distributor.  A magnet ring mounts on the distributor shaft under the rotor.  A small "receiver" mounts on the distributor base plate IN PLACE OF the points.  Two wires come out of that; red and black; black goes to coil "-" and red goes to coil "+".  There is no need for points, for a condenser, for any external boxes, and if you have a Pertronix coil, no ballast resistors either.  Nothing could be simpler.  My car ran better with the higher voltage Pertronix coil than with the Bosch.  The coil was less than $30, about the same price as a Bosch.

I had the Crane with an external box.  I removed it and all the wires.  I removed the Bosch coil.  I added the Pertronix to the inside of the distributor.  I added the Pertronix coil.  Figure 3 in their instructions.

For "appearance sake" only, the condenser is still mounted (but not connected) on the side of my distributor.  The ballast resistor is still mounted, but I only use one end as a "tie point" to the "+" wire from the ignition switch.

The Pertronix instructions also give some troubleshooting ideas.  Some caveats: it is electronic, and things electronic connected wrong can fail at the speed of light.  If the mysterious "box" connected still had some effect on something, that may have caused your unit to fail.  They specifically warn against leaving the ignition "on" but engine not running, for fear of overheating the Pertronix.  The troubleshooting guide would be helpful to follow.

[J. Huber]

This may be as good a place as any to butt in...

Can anybody answer these?

1. What exact model Pertronix would fit with distributor VJUR.6.BR49T (earliest 230SL)??

2. Is the changeout something an "almost a shadetree" mechanic can figure out? (guys you know who is asking?)

3. Once the Pertronix is in -- how hard is it to go back to points? (as in a sudden problem arose)

Today I decided to check/adjust my dwell and timing. It had been a while and I suspected a little movement. Sure enough the dwell was at 43 up from my setting at 39 last time. Using my sort of laborious method of: pull the cap and rotor, crank pulley to a lobe, guess the gap, reassemble and check -- it took me about 12 times to get close!! I played volleyball with 35 and 43 until I finally hit 40. Good enough I said -- and I then checked timing. Quite a bit off. This part went easy enough and now I'm at 30 @ 3000. Dwell somehow settled after this at 39. Car running nice. I'm claiming victory.

Now I have always been resistant to electronic -- thinking that points are the way MBZ set it up and was good enough for me. But after all the up and down and up again, I have to admit a Pertonix setup started to look pretty good...

[merl]

i also put in a petronix 280 sl 1970 love it    i purchased a second set to carry in case of a problem  havn't had to use it yet approx 3yrs 

[jacovdw]

James,

To answer your questions:

• In the Pertronix catalogue you won't find a listing for the early 230SL's with the vacuum advance distributors. My distributor is a 0 231 116 046 unit. However, to cut a long story short, I had a long discussion with the local Pertronix agent here in South Africa and in the end it was decided to use the 1864A module. I'm happy to report that it has been working flawlessly for the past 3 years.
• The installation is very straight forward and if you can adjust your linkages, then you would be able to install this yourself easily. I'd be happy to forward you photos if you want a step by step guide.
• No, not at all. Just reverse the installation steps of the Pertronics and fit your points. Set that basic gap to 0.3 - 0.4mm to enable you to limp home.

I also had enough of the fidgety business of setting up the dwell angle with points and that was one of the main reasons I decided on the Pertronics unit.

Hope this helps James.

[mdsalemi]

James,

The Pertronix 1864LA unit is the one I have in my later (but not latest) cast iron -051 distributor.  Sounds the same as Jacovdw's on the -046.

If you shop around you'll find the Pertronix at just around $90.  While easy to go back to points, it is EASIER to carry a spare unit with you.  If you get "stuck" somewhere on the road because of a failure of the electronics (all self contained inside the distributor) it takes just a screwdriver, maybe a pliers to swap out.

On my -051 I need to file the base of the Pertronix, not everyone has to do that.  Has something to do with the layout of the distributor baseplate.

[jacovdw]

Michael,

The VJUR 6 BR49T and 0 231 116 046 (as used in the early 230SL's) are vacuum advance distributors and are essentially the same in terms of internal dimensions (Pertronix module 1864A).

The 0 231 116 051 is a vacuum retard distributor and was used in the later 230SL's up to the early 280SL's (Pertronix module 1864LA).

The Pertronix modules may appear the same when one looks at the module number quickly, but are different. The one used in vacuum retard applications have a L in the part number suffix.

On the vacuum advance distributors it is not necessary to file the base of the Pertronix module, but the holding plate of the advance rod from the vacuum diaphragm has to be modified slightly to accommodate the magnet ring.

[mdsalemi]

Jacovdw--

That's extremely informative and more information in a paragraph than I've ever received on the subject!

I think then, that James should have the info he needs to try and order his unit.

[J. Huber]

Thank you both Jaco and Mike,

I am very encouraged and leaning more than ever. I currently (no pun intended) have the red coil Bosch. Will I want to replace this with the Pertonix version? Just as soon order all parts at same time. And can anybody throw out a website or vendor to help me start shopping? Thanks all!