Author Topic: New seat belts (Read 12145 times)

badali · « **on:** November 19, 2010, 00:26:35 »

I just bought a new set of Klippan seat belts on ebay. My car has only a shoulder belt on each side. These have the lap belt. I was worried about drilling a hole in the floor to mount the new belts. It turns out there is already a mounting point under the carpet with a factory plug in it. I will install them when I get a chance this winter. It looks like it will be a simple task. The original belts were also Klippan. I saw several sets on ebay so if you are looking for the NOS sets, they are still around.

scoot · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2010, 22:43:22 »

Klippan isn't orginal to Pagodas. Kangol is.

badali · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2010, 23:17:49 »

The picture in the instructions matches the car. The car also had Klippans in it from new from what I can tell. There are many variations. It is like the hirshman antenna. My car has a WISI antenna with the original antenna keys and instructions.

paults1 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2010, 23:48:12 »

I have an early '63 230SL, body No. 312, there is no pre-drilled holes. I have know idea where the best place is to mount lap belts.

Regards, Paul

badali · « **Reply #4 on:** November 20, 2010, 00:14:17 »

Here are the pictures of the factory mounting points.

badali · « **Reply #5 on:** November 20, 2010, 00:16:53 »

more pictures

jameshoward · « **Reply #6 on:** November 20, 2010, 10:19:20 »

Badali,

I preface this by saying that I'm not 100% sure about this, but...

The 3 three photos are indeed factory mounting points. The last photo, however, I'm pretty sure is a bodge job by a PO in years past. The shoulder mounting point at the B pillar is a strong point, as is the tunnel. It seems to me, however, that the floor mounting point is at an inherently weak point in the car.

I've put 3 point belts in my car, which hitherto fore had just lap belts (it was a US late 230). I followed MB's directions in their bulletin, (I was sent this by a fellow forum member, and I've sent these to many others). I also used the correct MB fitting kit. At no point was there any mention of a set up like yours.

To that end, I'd strongly recommend that you don't rely on the floor mounting point as it stands. It seems to me that the mounting point is on a floor pan - usually one of the first things to rust and be replaced. From the photo of the underside of the car it may be that there is more strength there given its close proximity to the training arm, but I'm pretty sure it isn't factory - but I can't say for certain as I just don't know enough. I am, though, certain about two things: First, I wouldn't rely on that point as a seat belt anchor, and second, it isn't the way MB say to do it now.

Sorry to be a bearer of bad news, but I think the car isn't as safe as it could be notwithstanding that you're replacing some pretty knackered old webbing.

JH

paults1 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 20, 2010, 14:45:45 »

Badali, Thanks for the info. & pics. The floor mounted looks to be OK. At least it will give some minmium sense of security.
Paul

jameshoward · « **Reply #8 on:** November 20, 2010, 15:48:20 »

Paul,

If you're looking to put belts in from new it's probably worth doing it properly - as opposed to winging it and getting a minimum sense of security - and so worth following the MB installation guide.

PM me with an email address that will take an 8MB attachment and I'll happily send it to you. It's not a hard job, and almost certainly far easier than trying to replicate the effort in the photos below.

JH

66andBlue · « **Reply #9 on:** November 20, 2010, 17:48:21 »

Hello James,
when 230SLs were retrofitted with lap belts many dealers here installed lap belts and mounted them to the floor pan. Apparently they were unaware that an anchor point existed already behind the carpet on the parcel shelf wall. Mine came that way, dealer installed also.
See: http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/66andBlue/2006412232157_Seatbelt_mounting.jpg
Are these pre-drilled holes not there in very early 230SL cars

badali · « **Reply #10 on:** November 20, 2010, 18:08:06 »

Jameshoward
I used the bracket in the kit and put it on the mounting that was in the floor. As you can see the mountings locations are from the factory. The bracket (from the kit) in the last picture is bolted through one of the factory points. It is solid. The car has the original floors and coatings, never rusted or repaired. The seat belt position lays better around the seat using the bracket. I made no modifications to the car when adding the belts. The car had no lap belts hence the reason I added the new belts. I still have to install the drivers side belt. I'm not sure I like the bracket so I may take it out and bolt the belt directly to the floor. There are several spacers in the kit for the bolts. I just didn't like the way the belt lays around the seat when flat to the floor.
Brad

jameshoward · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2010, 19:27:28 »

Hi Alfred,

I had assumed that these were dealer fitted, and subject to the vagaries of...dealers. Just like the ariels or a/c.

My point is less about what dealers did back then (and the floor bracket in my view was never 'factory' - I've looked thru the '59 BBB and shots of the underside show no additional fittings, although I accept the shots aren't clear) and more about making cars as safe as they can be in modern times. The MB fitting procedure for belts today, as you know, has the floor bracket at the bottom of the B pillar. It's a strong point, which is why I assume they recommend it. So, for those perhaps about to fit belts who may read this thread at a later date, I wish only to record that the set-up as shown is not the way to proceed. Rather, one should follow the instructions in the MB tech bulletin, which uses the B pillar.

At this juncture I will gracelessly bow out, as I'm not trying to start a row, just hoping to help people set their up their cars to be as safe as possible. Having done the mod on a late 230, it isn't hard and I'm very glad I did it. (Not least because I can now get a child seat in the car. But that's another story...)

JH

badali · « **Reply #12 on:** November 20, 2010, 20:05:24 »

Looking at the picture from 66andblue the mounting points are identical. I think they were install in cars in case someone wanted to add the optional belts.

66andBlue · « **Reply #13 on:** November 20, 2010, 20:40:17 »

Hi James,
I did not want to start a row either. Just tried to point out that there is a factory installed mounting point on the parcel shelf wall that can be used .
I also now remember an entry in Engelen's book that the floor built-up was modified for 3-point seat belts installation after 230SL Chassis # 15693. I believe - but am not sure - that this change included the holes on the vertical wall shown in my picture.
Engelen also mentions that after chassis #3591 seat foundations ("Sitzlagerschalen") received holes for belt brackets. Perhaps those are the holes in the floor pans? Seat belts certainly were an option for the 230SL as early as May 1964 (price: 110 German marks - DM).

scoot · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2010, 18:40:15 »

Quote from: badali on November 19, 2010, 23:17:49

The picture in the instructions matches the car. The car also had Klippans in it from new from what I can tell. There are many variations. It is like the hirshman antenna. My car has a WISI antenna with the original antenna keys and instructions.

I think this is unlikely to have come from MB originally this way. Klippan _may_ be the MB-approved retrofit, but as best as I know Kangol was the original 3-point belts and early cars with 2-point belts had American Hickok belts in them.

badali · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2010, 19:23:34 »

I would agree that the seat belts could be not from the factory but that the Klippins were installed when the car was new or fairly new. They are period correct. The mounting points were not added later. The body on this car is original and the sound deadening material around the mounting points is unaltered. The floor has the reinforcement it should for the mounting points. Thanks for your insight on the belts. They were an easy install on my car and the bottom line is that the car is safer to drive.
Brad

scoot · « **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2010, 20:37:12 »

Quote from: badali on November 21, 2010, 19:23:34

I would agree that the seat belts could be not from the factory but that the Klippins were installed when the car was new or fairly new. They are period correct. The mounting points were not added later. The body on this car is original and the sound deadening material around the mounting points is unaltered. The floor has the reinforcement it should for the mounting points. Thanks for your insight on the belts. They were an easy install on my car and the bottom line is that the car is safer to drive.
Brad

I am not debating the originality of the mounting points. Mercedes went over to Klippan around 1971 / 1972, but to the best of my knowledge NOT in the W113 model line. The transition from Kangol to Klippan happened with 1972 model year for W114 cars and I think 1972 for W108 cars. I don't believe it ever happened with W113 cars. I am happy to be wrong about this, but I don't think that I am... I have never seen a Pagoda with Klippan belts.

waqas · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2010, 21:11:02 »

I've seen both 111s and 113s with Klippan belts (in fact I just saw a 280SE/cab today with Klippan belts in front, part number 114-860-03-69 for the receiver end).

Even if MB didn't switch to Klippans until 71/72, I would consider them to be period correct. These may not have been installed from the factory, but if an owner subsequently decided to have seat-belts installed by the MB dealer, say in 1974, there would be a higher chance of getting a set of Klippans than a set of Kangols.

badali · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2010, 23:41:28 »

Waqas,

Thanks, I was beginning to feel like a punching bag for sharing my latest project. I finished putting in the belts yesterday and I am satisfied with the job.

Brad

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Author Topic: New seat belts (Read 12145 times)