How does upgrading/modifying a Pagoda alter its value?

[GGR]

Hi all,

I was originally looking for an early 230SL with manual shift because they are lighter and I prefer the design of some trim details. I wasn't able to find one within my budget apart from rust buckets. Instead, I was lucky to get a very sound US '71 280SL with 78.000 original miles, with auto transmission, A/C and leather interior in good shape. This is not exactly what I was looking for but the opportunity was good so I went for it.

The car needs some work as it sat in a garage for long years but I was already able to have it work very decently. There are some dings here and there so the car will need some light body work and a respray at a later stage.   

I would like to make some performance oriented upgrades/modifications, and I wonder how this will affect the value of the car, positively or negatively, and in what proportions.

- conversion from auto transmission to 5 speed manual (Getrag 265, Tremec or MB 717.400)

- W123 300D 14"x6" aluminum wheels, the ones that take the hubcap. I was lucky to get a set.

- replacement of trail arms and front subframe spring leafs/sway bar bushings by Coxracing poly-bushings

- bigger sway bar

- relocation of the battery behind the passenger seat (a small dry cell Braille that would fit hoizontally under the cover)

- euro camshaft

- electronic ignition with euro advance curve

- delete of the A/C system (it may save up to 60lbs)

- better flowing stainless steel exhaust line

- conversion to euro look when I respray the car: delete bumperettes, side markers and fit euro headlights.

The idea is to make a nimble and fun to drive car, but I would like it to keep its value.

Thanks in advance for the guidance!

[mdsalemi]

GGR,

You have proposed a long, comprehensive list of changes that will take a long time and a lot of money.  Just on that note alone, don't expect to recoup your investment in them.  That being said, here is my take on some of them.

1)  Wheels, Sway Bar, should not have a negative impact on much of anything as they can easily be reversed back to stock.
2)  Bushings are hidden, and if they improve your ride they too will probably be OK and relative easy to revert back to stock if you or another owner does not like them.
3)  Deleting the A/C is pretty common when people can't get it working right.  However, a well-sorted A/C unit is wonderful to have if you drive in the summer.  Even top down in a D.C. July is miserable.  Want to delete 60#?  Keep passengers out of the car; drive with 1/4 tank of gas, leave the spare tire and tool kit at home.
4)  Transmission is an often discussed topic here.  If you change anything ensure it is done properly, no quirky half-baked conversions, Mickey-Mouse mechanical work, or things like that.  Consider a rear end conversion if the RPM's bother you.  Another take is that it isn't broken, so why bother?
5)  Do things for a reason.  Why does the battery need to be relocated?  If you want to improve the battery from stock, get an Optima.  It does not need to move.
6)  Stainless exhaust will be the last one you buy...unless you don't like the sound.  Some don't like the "note".
7)  Euro look conversion is popular.  Many have done it.
8..  Electronic ignitions of any type are generally an improvement over stock, but better make sure all else is working fine first.

You state that you want to make a "nimble and fun car" to drive.  My car, though hardly original (highly restored) is mostly stock (meaning original design parts, OEM, etc.) with mods such as electronic ignition, stainless exhaust, seat belts.  I find it fun and nimble to drive as it is--as most Pagodas are.  It does not have a/c, and it is an automatic.  Yes, it's screaming at 4,000 RPM at my highway cruising at 70 MPH...just as Rudi Uhlenhaut intended.  The USA spec does not bother me--it was built that way. (Besides, when I'm driving it, OTHER people see the side markers, and headlights and most don't have a clue either way... )  I don't often think about battery location.  I have the aluminum wheels, but keep the steel ones around.

Putting dollar value effects on such a list of mods is highly subjective.  Originality is something a lot of buyers look for--never heard of anyone seeking out a modified car.

John Olsen, from the SL Market Letter, keeps a large database of SL and collectible sale information.  Reading his condition chart, there is a difference between modified and original, particularly if the mods are done "carelessly" or "amateur".  Subjective but deviations from OEM or stock devlaue the car--period.  That's the data.  However, there might be some special allowances.  Peter Lesler here, has created a "competition" Pagoda for racing time trial and autocross.  That requires some serious mods.  If someone is looking for a pre-made car of that kind--well, perhaps the mods were proper.

Bottom line is if you are going to spend all this money, best to keep the car, and enjoy it.  Don't turn around and try to sell it when complete--you would probably be better off leaving it alone and just making what you have work well.

Tom Sargeant (DC area and this site) has made a lot of mods to his car for drivability and they were done nicely and work well.

[J. Huber]

I second about everything Mike said. Your list has some decent ideas and a few that border on blasphemy or worse...

The reason these cars are so great is because they are fun and nimble to drive. And they look so great to boot.

If I were you, I'd make priority number one getting the car as close to stock as possible -- replacing what needs replacing to get it running and looking like it did in 1971. The exceptions to this are: if it makes you feel better, change to an electronic ignition (but keep the mods reversible as Michael said). If you want to do a Euro-look conversion, gauges, headlamps and clean bumpers will probably do it.

Forget the battery idea.

After you have the car looking and running like a 1971 280SL -- then decide if you want it to be something else. I bet you won't but if you do, sell it and get a 230SL or Early 250SL..

[GGR]

thanks you for your useful answers.

I do all the work myself, and usually to a pretty high standard as I can afford to spend time on it which is not always the case of professionals who need to remain competitive (unless the client has unlimited means, which is far from being my case). This is not to say all the mods will come cheap, as I will still need to buy the parts. But cost will remain reasonable in view of the improvements. And a hobby comes at a cost, ususally.  

Another factor is that I take equal pleasure in tinkering with my cars, if not more, than in the final result. I know I may not recoup all the money I put in these modifications, but at least I wouldn't like to sell the car for less than it would have fetched if it had remained stock, if I ever need to sell it.

The reason I want to go for a 5 speed manual transmission is because I'm of European origin and drove a lot of manual shifts in a spirited manner on twisted roads when I was younger. This education makes it difficult for me to enjoy an automatic transmission, as I came to it much later. Mind you, I still sometimes violently hit the brakes when in fact I'm looking for the clutch pedal in an attempt to shift quickly in an emergency situation or when that damn auto trans isn't upshifting when I floor it, having the engine scream like mad. Also, I believe an auto trans is concievable behind more torquey V8s, but does not suit the character of an L6. But I guess this is personnal.

I have a spare 3.27 rear end, but I think a 5 speed (with overdrive 5th) and the original 3.92 will get much more out of the car than a 3.27 and auto trans.

Relocating the battery is to improve weight distribution, and is fully reversible.

It took me a long time to find this car. I'm not good at sheet metal work, so no rust was important. I also like the patina of the original leather interior. I doubt I will find a 230 SL fitting my bill (and budget) anytime soon, if I judge by all the ones I've seen up to now. So I may just keep this car and make it the way I like rather than selling it to get another one. But you never know. If someone has a rust free 230SL manual shift in good working order and wants to swap for a 280SL with auto trans and A/C, why not?

I've been in touch with Tom. We may have a drink together and discuss his upgrades. I'm very interested.

Just out of curiosity, for how much do you think one of the radically modified Hatch & Sons 3.5 Pagodas would sell for? (selling price, not asking price).

Thanks again for all your input.

[mdsalemi]

Hmmmm....

If the weight distribution is wrong--wrong enough to consider moving the battery, (I'll confess, it's a new one on me)
AND you like all that "spiriited driving"...
AND you like to tinker with your toys...
AND you are concerned enough about possible resale--maybe this isn't exactly the car for all this?  There are other cars of the era with lower prices that you can do this with.  MGB?  Austin Healey? Sunbeam Tiger if you want a V8?  They were true sports cars and were often ran on the track, lots of modified ones out there...

This is not my opinion, it is merely a suggestion for thought, and one that has been discussed here at length before, usually when the issue of substantial modifications comes up.

Jim Villers modifies his cars all the time, but his mantra his cut no wires and drill no holes, and make sure it can be put back to stock.

If you don't think you can find a proper 230SL in your budget, I wouldn't chase the pricing of a Hatch V8...as they say, if you have to ask...but if you give them a call I'm sure they'll be happy to discuss it.

[GGR]

If you don't think you can find a proper 230SL in your budget, I wouldn't chase the pricing of a Hatch V8...as they say, if you have to ask...but if you give them a call I'm sure they'll be happy to discuss it.

That's my point. First you say "deviations from OEM or stock devlaue the car--period" and now this about the Hatch V8. I'm sure they ask a lot for it, but would it sell?

The Pagoda clearly has a weight transfer problem under hard braking compounded by its rather soft suspension and short wheel base. This combined with the swing rear axle can make the car difficult to control especially if you enter a bend right after braking (which is often the case). The problem can also appear when you have to lift the accelerator pedal right in the middle of a bend, in an emergency situation. I have scary memories of such a situaion in a Coupe. This is the whole idea of the Olson progressive springs. Less dive, less weight transfer, less rear wheels camber variation that keep the car easier to control. Another way to cure the problem is to adapt an air suspension rear axle (keeping the springs) to get the braking anti lift system that keeps the rear of the car down under braking. Some MB racing cars had this back in the day. But it requires some chassis modification.

Shifting the battery in the back is one of the most effective, commonly used and cheapest trick to improve weight distribution, and this would be quite effective in the case of the Pagoda as the battery is ahead of the front axle.

I've owned quite a lot of W108/109/111 chassis cars and modified/upgraded them sometimes quite a lot. Potential loss of value was never an issue because their original value was lower anyway. The Pagoda is different. The MB crowd is usually (much) more conservative than the average enthousiast and the bias increases with owners of more valuable cars. I should not ignore this as obviously any potential buyer will be among them. That said, I feel it a pity that the glorious racing past of the brand (including with Pagodas!) is often forgotten in favour of sticking to originality and considering performance upgrades as blasphemous. Unless it's done by some "names" such as Hatch, Mechatronik or HK engineering.... This is clearly reflected by the lack of availability of MB performance parts, compared to Jaguar, BMW, or Alfa Romeo to cite only a few. There is simply no demand, no market.

[mdsalemi]

The MSL (Mechatronik) is nearly a different automobile.  I'm not sure how many they've sold, often times these things are experiments.  The Hatch probably isn't much different.

But back to your original question--do mods change the value?  Yes.  But do not take my word for it, and do not believe anything I say.  Call John Olson, who has perhaps the largest database of actual sale values of most SL's (Pagoda included).  He's a nice guy, been around for decades, and will probably discuss the issue at length.  He has the sales figures compiled from a variety of sources.

And as for Hatch, it isn't something I would be interested in.  If I wanted a car that went faster, stopped quicker, accelerated brisker, didn't have a weight transfer issue, et al, I would not be looking at my Pagoda for it.  That's the inevitable conclusion many will reach here--if you make so many mods to change the character of the car--or try to--just change the car.

I think it was Joe Alexander who suggested to somebody not too long ago, an SLK. You could probably find a used one for a fraction of the cost of all these mods on a Pagoda.  You can still enjoy the Pagoda for what it is, as it is.  Many do.

[GGR]

For the value, I guess I have to agree with you. If there is no demand for upgraded Pagodas then price will have to be low.

For the rest I don't agree. I have an upgraded W111 Coupe that I took for a coast to coast round trip two summers ago and I enjoyed doing it in that car, for the design, the style, and the vintage. It would have been much less pleasurable if the car had been stock with a screaming 6 cyl all the way or in a modern sedan.

The MSL may not be that different. It has a modern V6, but apparently has kept the swing axle. I was talking to Hatch father the other day on what is involved in fitting a 3.5 in a Pagoda. He told me he had the occasion to drive one of these MSL that was imported into the US and he was not that impressed. he said his 3.5 Pagoda was pulling better.

[Raymond]

GGR,
You will find many purists who love our cars for the way they came out of the factory.  I admire and appreciate them.  They are keeping a beautifully engineered and designed machine true to its roots.  However, there are a lot of these cars and there are a lot of nearly perfect examples for those folks. 

I am of the group that believes that modifying my car to get more fun out of it, is a good thing.  I bought a Coupe, which is generally less desirable than an drop top, that was in need of much care.  I have instlled a 5-speed and altered the suspension more than once experimenting with springs and bushings, I have installed electronic ignition, modified the air intake, relocated the battery, and will have the aluminum rims on for the trip to Blacklick.  I have made a lot of "stock" repairs as well and not altered the external look of the car.  Today it is in far better shape than when I bought it.  A purist would have no interest in it.  I have all of the original parts, and have made only one cut and drilled one hole in the body in places that can't be seen. 

I firmly believe that I have added value to the car by bringing it back from the edge.  Would a Concours restoration add more?  Yes.  Would I be afraid to drive one that had $50,000 of restoration work done?  Yes.  And, what is value?  Money, or pleasure?

[GGR]

GGR,
You will find many purists who love our cars for the way they came out of the factory.  I admire and appreciate them.  They are keeping a beautifully engineered and designed machine true to its roots.  However, there are a lot of these cars and there are a lot of nearly perfect examples for those folks. 

I am of the group that believes that modifying my car to get more fun out of it, is a good thing.  I bought a Coupe, which is generally less desirable than an drop top, that was in need of much care.  I have instlled a 5-speed and altered the suspension more than once experimenting with springs and bushings, I have installed electronic ignition, modified the air intake, relocated the battery, and will have the aluminum rims on for the trip to Blacklick.  I have made a lot of "stock" repairs as well and not altered the external look of the car.  Today it is in far better shape than when I bought it.  A purist would have no interest in it.  I have all of the original parts, and have made only one cut and drilled one hole in the body in places that can't be seen. 

I firmly believe that I have added value to the car by bringing it back from the edge.  Would a Concours restoration add more?  Yes.  Would I be afraid to drive one that had $50,000 of restoration work done?  Yes.  And, what is value?  Money, or pleasure?

I see you pretty much did to your car all what I want to do to mine. How did you modify the intake, and for what purpose?

I will be very happy to see your car in Blacklick and see and discuss the mods you made. I may not have done much on my car by then as I first need to finish an engine swap project I have on my W111 Coupe (Megasquirted M117 alloy block euro 5.0 mated to a 5 speed manual transmission. But shhh.. I shouldn't say that too loudly).

[ja17]

Hello,

I have modified more than my share of Mercedes over the years. If your doing it just for your own pleasure, do not worry about the value loss. If you are worried about the value loss, don't go to far or two radical.

Yes, moving some weight around can make a big difference in tweeking handling. Your thoughts on the unsprung weight and rotational weight are valid indeed. Weight distribution becomes significant at speed. The rotational force in foot lbs changes by weight times the "square" of the distance moved in relation to the center of gravity. Quite radical if you move a 60 lb battery four feet from the center of gravity {60 X (4x4)} = 960 lf lbs change !  Lowering the battery or any other weight also plays an effect in the handling. But first you will need to decide what needs to be changed on the handling. Changes in weight distribution may follow tires, shocks etc so you can find out how the car handles as is.

Perfectly neutral handling cars are rare. Most passenger cars are designed to understeer a bit and are more controlable to the everyday driver (simply letting off the gas during an understeer situation will correct the situation). Rally cars are designed to oversteer so they can be controled with the accelerator on loose, rough road surfaces(accelerating during a oversteer situation usually corrects the problem). Neutral road race cars are a pleasure to drive in the hands of an excellent driver (during a neutral broad slide the driver can accelerate or let up or brake to change direction of the car). 

The biggest investment for driving  improvement is experience. Tweeking the driver with driver training, track events, autocrosses, will result in the biggest improvements in times. Equipment is a distant second improvement. Sticky tires and weight reduction are the most significant improvers in the "equipment catagory".  Horsepower comes along next.

I see  performance priorities as;    (1) driver training, (2) driver experience, (3) tires, (4) weight reduction and distribution, (5) horsepower.

As I mentioned in a previous post fast, good handling, Mercedes roadsters are plentiful these days for a bargain (560SLs, AMG coupes, sedans, SLs and SLKs). In addition you get all the creature comforts like AC, Stereo, ABS, wide tires, etc.   You may wish to not get too radical on the W113 and just pick up a little pocket rocket to ease your need for speed !

[GGR]

Thanks. Though I have acquired reasonable driving skills first riding motorbikes and then driving cars (always getting the cheap and battered cars I could afford to the limit), I'm certainly not a professional rallye or track driver. In fact, I'm more interested in the sensations I'm getting behind the wheel than by the lap times I'm getting. One illustration of this is that I often prefer stock tire sizes to wider ones, because it makes the car more predictable and easier to control. I feel the zone between full adherence and total loss of control is wider with stock tires, and the car usually tells you in advance what it is going to do. This is particularly true with the rear swing axle. Wider tires will make it more impredictable and once adherence is lost the car is much harder to control in my experience.

I have attended as a spectator and a passenger some autocrosses and track events with the local MBCA branch last year and hope to participate as a driver next season. I'm sure I will learn a lot in terms of driving. But I will be using my Coupe more often than the Pagoda I think, at leat at the beginning.

I know a modern pocket rocket will do anything better than the Pagoda will ever do, but as I already wrote earlier my pleasure is much in working on and tweaking the car and then feeling the difference when I drive it. A bit like someone who likes riding a bicycle as a hobby sport: He surely would be much faster on a motorbike, but that's not what he is intersted in.

[GGR]

Quite radical if you move a 60 lb battery four feet from the center of gravity {60 X (4x4)} = 960 lf lbs change !

I think it's even better than that. The battery is located say three feet ahead of the center of gravity. Removing it from there already yields a gain of [60 x (3x3)] = 540. Add to that the 960 due to relocating it in the back and we have 1200.

In my case putting a 20 lb Braille 2 ft back from the gravity center will total a change of 540 + 80 = 620, but I will remove 40 lbs from the car.

Removing the A/C system with the compressor and huge heavy bracket right there in the front will also help both in weight distribution and weight saving.

[mdsalemi]

Let's not forget your original question.

This was not a debate on whether to pursue certain changes to your Pagoda, or their merits; it was about the effect these changes would have on value.

The market apparently, for most Mercedes, does not particularly value deviations from stock.  That's why all original, unrestored cars command what they do--such as the 230SL bubble car that sold in London in October of 2009.

Nearly all the things you mention have been done, in one form or another.  Mostly people do one or two things at a time to improve their driving experience.  Sounds like you push the envelope a bit so some of these changes might have a large effect on your experiences in a very positive manner.

GGR, it sounds like you have thought through (based on other posts you've made) many of these changes and there is sound reasoning behind them.  So, do them and improve your car!  But, do so to improve your driving experiences and have fun along the way...don't do it expecting "the market" will value what you do as much as you do!

Hopefully most of your project might be done by PUB and you can drive the car there and talk about the changes before and after.   That's what makes a good presentation.

[GGR]

Thanks.

As for everything else in life, I guess I will have to strike a compromise, pleasure vs value in this case. As long as I keep things reversible, I may get the best of both worlds, with a bit of added work if I have to return some of it to original the day I want to sell the car.

[GGR]

Hopefully most of your project might be done by PUB and you can drive the car there and talk about the changes before and after.   That's what makes a good presentation.

As I said before, I doubt I will have done much of the upgrades on the Pagoda by then, as I need to finish my (more radical) W111 Coupe project first. I hope to obtain a fine balance between performance, comfort, reliability and pleasure in driving an homogenous car with that Coupe. As long as you promise not to call the FBI based on mechanical terrorism charges, I could also take it to Blacklick: a lot of what I'm doing on that Coupe could also apply to the W113 chassis so these upgrades could be discussed. And people could judge if they make the car more or less desirable, after seeing and driving it.

[JamesL]

Speed costs. How fast do you want to spend?

Mine was a restored car when I bought it. I've changed the back end, put Koni shocks on, the retro Becker Mexico in it, the alloy wheels/w hubcaps on, halogen bulbs in, Carbotech brake pads, and a Crane electronic ignition... anyone see the hand of Mr Villiers video in this??

My call would be that - bodywork aside - the car is more valuable than it was in THIS market. The car would never win a concours (worthy of the name) but is a decent driver (and is driven, as some on here know) and I reckon the car would attract something of a premium as a result. In this market, swapping the tranny out would reduce value, as most Pagodas here are in the most traffic-congested part of the country and an Auto is preferred.

If the car were an untouched original, I dount I'd have made quite so many changes although they could all be undone....

[GGR]

Speed costs. How fast do you want to spend?

That's a good image.

Indeed serious performance upgrades cost a lot. But what I'm planning to do is very limited and cost reasonable compared to a car that would do vintage racing for example.

[ja17]

Hello,

Frank Cozza (Regional Director in the Mercedes Benz Club of America) and his wife (Mary Alice) campaigned his 280 SL W113 for many years in club track and autocross events. His home and workshop are filled with National Club Trophies won with the pagoda. It was very competitive and he drove it hard up till the mid 90s.
Pete Lesler also on the site and past President of The MBCA also campaigned a vintage race W113 he built himself. 


It would be nice if we could get these guys to write up an article. So their experiences can be documented  so useful information could be passed on to those interested. 

[thelews]

How does upgrading/modifying a Pagoda alter its value?

Depends on the buyer.

[GGR]

It would be nice if we could get these guys to write up an article. So their experiences can be documented  so useful information could be passed on to those interested.  

That would be really great! We could also ask Steve Walters to participate. He prepared a W111 and participated to the Carrera Panamericana once or twice. He still has the car and is a regular participant to the local MBCA autocrosses and track days. I could ask him if there is some interest.